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	<title>Comments on: Hodge, Cromwell, Church and State</title>
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	<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2006/06/16/hodge-cromwell-church-and-state-caleb/</link>
	<description>The Reign of Christ</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 23:15:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: W.H. Chellis</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2006/06/16/hodge-cromwell-church-and-state-caleb/#comment-34</link>
		<dc:creator>W.H. Chellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jun 2006 20:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/?p=20#comment-34</guid>
		<description>Liberty of conscience is inviolable but freedom of action is a different matter.  &lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;I am not sure that these difficulties are all that staggering.  In fact, they were part of the organic framework of things are originally experienced during our colonial experience and the early republic.  &lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;New York's colonial establishments were county based.  New England established Congregationalism, ect.  The U.S. Constitution prevented a Federal Establishement from preempting the state establishments.  Federalism at its best.  &lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Even when there was not legal establishment, defacto establishments existed all over the place up until recent years.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Horse before the cart may be accurate...but all that we are talking about awaits a rather large movement of the Holy Spirit.  The question is... when it comes... what should it look like?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Liberty of conscience is inviolable but freedom of action is a different matter.  </p>
<p>I am not sure that these difficulties are all that staggering.  In fact, they were part of the organic framework of things are originally experienced during our colonial experience and the early republic.  </p>
<p>New York&#8217;s colonial establishments were county based.  New England established Congregationalism, ect.  The U.S. Constitution prevented a Federal Establishement from preempting the state establishments.  Federalism at its best.  </p>
<p>Even when there was not legal establishment, defacto establishments existed all over the place up until recent years.</p>
<p>Horse before the cart may be accurate&#8230;but all that we are talking about awaits a rather large movement of the Holy Spirit.  The question is&#8230; when it comes&#8230; what should it look like?</p>
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		<title>By: Caleb Stegall</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2006/06/16/hodge-cromwell-church-and-state-caleb/#comment-35</link>
		<dc:creator>Caleb Stegall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/?p=20#comment-35</guid>
		<description>What if they did go?  How might there be a state law regulating the Sabbath without destroying local establishmentarianism?  Wouldn't it then be State establishment?  What about laws prohibiting proselytizing?  What about punitive measures against non-members of the established church?  I am just scratching the surface here of the magnitude of difficulty which will flow from this.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Moreover, we are really putting the cart before the horse.  Law is an expression of power, and as Mao noted, power grows out of the barrel of a gun.  &lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;It is possible to conceive of a political entity small enough to be infiltrated and taken over with the intent of seceding from the Union.  Short of that, I'm not sure what the point is.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;The broader point I wanted to make is that it will not do to continue to speak of "freedom of conscience" if one really means what he says when he seeks some form of establishmentarian government.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What if they did go?  How might there be a state law regulating the Sabbath without destroying local establishmentarianism?  Wouldn&#8217;t it then be State establishment?  What about laws prohibiting proselytizing?  What about punitive measures against non-members of the established church?  I am just scratching the surface here of the magnitude of difficulty which will flow from this.</p>
<p>Moreover, we are really putting the cart before the horse.  Law is an expression of power, and as Mao noted, power grows out of the barrel of a gun.  </p>
<p>It is possible to conceive of a political entity small enough to be infiltrated and taken over with the intent of seceding from the Union.  Short of that, I&#8217;m not sure what the point is.</p>
<p>The broader point I wanted to make is that it will not do to continue to speak of &#8220;freedom of conscience&#8221; if one really means what he says when he seeks some form of establishmentarian government.</p>
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		<title>By: W.H. Chellis</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2006/06/16/hodge-cromwell-church-and-state-caleb/#comment-36</link>
		<dc:creator>W.H. Chellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/?p=20#comment-36</guid>
		<description>It would depend if there were state laws regulating the Sabbath which I would assume.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;If not, I would say that they must take the mind your own business approach and do not travel there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would depend if there were state laws regulating the Sabbath which I would assume.</p>
<p>If not, I would say that they must take the mind your own business approach and do not travel there.</p>
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		<title>By: Caleb Stegall</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2006/06/16/hodge-cromwell-church-and-state-caleb/#comment-37</link>
		<dc:creator>Caleb Stegall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/?p=20#comment-37</guid>
		<description>Local establishmentarianism is an interesting idea.  What happens when the Catholic county next to the teatolaling county starts sells beer on Sundays?  Is there a list of constitutionally approved religious expressions which can be established?  Or perhaps we need a federal Ministry of Religion to sort out those complexities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Local establishmentarianism is an interesting idea.  What happens when the Catholic county next to the teatolaling county starts sells beer on Sundays?  Is there a list of constitutionally approved religious expressions which can be established?  Or perhaps we need a federal Ministry of Religion to sort out those complexities.</p>
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		<title>By: W.H. Chellis</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2006/06/16/hodge-cromwell-church-and-state-caleb/#comment-38</link>
		<dc:creator>W.H. Chellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/?p=20#comment-38</guid>
		<description>Well, I think it is to be preferred over the civil magistrate trying to answer questions that are not within his purview.  He is a minister of the sword and must defend the Church not dominate her.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;The division of the Church must be healed by the Church.  Thus, a kind of local establishmentarianism is, in my opinion, the best hope.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;It seemed to work pretty well during the colonial period and early republic (it was at least more successful than the short lived Scottish Second Reformation).&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Besides, is there an alternative?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I think it is to be preferred over the civil magistrate trying to answer questions that are not within his purview.  He is a minister of the sword and must defend the Church not dominate her.</p>
<p>The division of the Church must be healed by the Church.  Thus, a kind of local establishmentarianism is, in my opinion, the best hope.</p>
<p>It seemed to work pretty well during the colonial period and early republic (it was at least more successful than the short lived Scottish Second Reformation).</p>
<p>Besides, is there an alternative?</p>
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		<title>By: Caleb Stegall</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2006/06/16/hodge-cromwell-church-and-state-caleb/#comment-39</link>
		<dc:creator>Caleb Stegall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/?p=20#comment-39</guid>
		<description>Bill, &lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Would you really be happy with one county commission imposing the mass, one mandating the prayer book, and another abolishing infant baptism?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill, </p>
<p>Would you really be happy with one county commission imposing the mass, one mandating the prayer book, and another abolishing infant baptism?</p>
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		<title>By: Caleb Stegall</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2006/06/16/hodge-cromwell-church-and-state-caleb/#comment-41</link>
		<dc:creator>Caleb Stegall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/?p=20#comment-41</guid>
		<description>Yes, Greg has it right.  Freedom of conscience does not exactly jive with Hodge's, Cromwell's, or anyone elses idea of "Christian law."  This is one of the contradictions at the heart of this discussion and every discussion on the matter since at least Locke. &lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Eagle feathers are irrelevant, but the decision is a good primer into how our nation's judiciary has twisted itself into knots trying to resolve this very tension.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Greg has it right.  Freedom of conscience does not exactly jive with Hodge&#8217;s, Cromwell&#8217;s, or anyone elses idea of &#8220;Christian law.&#8221;  This is one of the contradictions at the heart of this discussion and every discussion on the matter since at least Locke. </p>
<p>Eagle feathers are irrelevant, but the decision is a good primer into how our nation&#8217;s judiciary has twisted itself into knots trying to resolve this very tension.</p>
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		<title>By: Baus</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2006/06/16/hodge-cromwell-church-and-state-caleb/#comment-42</link>
		<dc:creator>Baus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jun 2006 13:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/?p=20#comment-42</guid>
		<description>I take it that Stegall's point here is that if one says "freedom of worship" then this includes freedom of idolatry or it doesn't, and one should be specific and clear about which is intended.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Then of course one should also be clear and specific about what constitutes idolatry.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Or is there some other point?&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;I'm not sure what Stegall's point might be with regard to the eagle feather issue and the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals.  Perhaps he would like to draw out the implications relevant to our discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I take it that Stegall&#8217;s point here is that if one says &#8220;freedom of worship&#8221; then this includes freedom of idolatry or it doesn&#8217;t, and one should be specific and clear about which is intended.</p>
<p>Then of course one should also be clear and specific about what constitutes idolatry.</p>
<p>Or is there some other point?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure what Stegall&#8217;s point might be with regard to the eagle feather issue and the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals.  Perhaps he would like to draw out the implications relevant to our discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: David McCrory</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2006/06/16/hodge-cromwell-church-and-state-caleb/#comment-43</link>
		<dc:creator>David McCrory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jun 2006 13:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/?p=20#comment-43</guid>
		<description>You've heard it said "You can't legislate morality". You can't NOT legislate it. Man is a moral being, likewise those laws enforced by the State always carry moral consequences. Should the State promote religious piety? You'd be hard pressed to find a time when it didn't try.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;ve heard it said &#8220;You can&#8217;t legislate morality&#8221;. You can&#8217;t NOT legislate it. Man is a moral being, likewise those laws enforced by the State always carry moral consequences. Should the State promote religious piety? You&#8217;d be hard pressed to find a time when it didn&#8217;t try.</p>
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		<title>By: W.H. Chellis</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2006/06/16/hodge-cromwell-church-and-state-caleb/#comment-44</link>
		<dc:creator>W.H. Chellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jun 2006 12:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/?p=20#comment-44</guid>
		<description>Hi Caleb,&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Context is king.  Hodge makes a tremendous sense when placed in the friendly confines of 19th Century Protestant America.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Hodge might have spoken more pointedly in the midst of our present circumstances.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;BC</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Caleb,</p>
<p>Context is king.  Hodge makes a tremendous sense when placed in the friendly confines of 19th Century Protestant America.</p>
<p>Hodge might have spoken more pointedly in the midst of our present circumstances.</p>
<p>BC</p>
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