RE: Community and Normativity W.H. Chellis I wan…
RE: Community and Normativity
W.H. Chellis
I want to thank Greg Baus for his interaction with my article on the Foundations of the National Confessional position. Obviously, there is much that Greg and I agree on. I found his interaction helpful and spent a great deal of time reading through the linked articles on neutrality, sphere sovereignty, and neo-Calvinism.
Thus far, I would commend Edmund Burke’s distrust of “sophistry, calculators, and economists.” When I read the neo-Calvinists, I get the same feeling in the pit of my stomach when that I get reading libertarians abstractors like von Mises or Ayn Rand as well as socialists like Marx and Engles. Although I greatly prefer the ideas (sometimes… Although sometimes I have to admit a limited preference to von Mises as many defenders of neo-Calvinism tend toward Marx) of Neo-Calvinism, I still find it a metaphysical abstraction unworthy of a party that calls itself “anti-revolutionary”.
Rather, the beauty of the National Confessional position is not its radicalism but its inherent conservatism. It stands within the great tradition of Western Christendom. It’s stand it not uncritical, but even its criticism places it within the stream of the revealed will of God and our shared historical experience.
Criticism aside, I do believe there is a great deal within neo-Calvinism that stands within the great tradition. After all, Kuyper was a conservative who stood upon the foundation of the tradition. It was his sons that turned the position into an abstraction. I would suggest that the sons of Kuyper return to their father. I trust that Greg Baus will do much to help the situation.
In Kuyper, it seems to me, we find the greatest hope of agreement between our respective positions. Did Kuyper believe in “sphere soverignty”, indeed he did, but I question whether his view of sphere soverignty was closer to the historic Christian ideal of subsidiarity or the modern neo-Calvinist conception. I would prefer to re-root Kupyer in the tradition of classical subsidiarity as expressed in Calvin, Althusius, and the Puritans. This is where I am most confortable. A confessional pluralism within the context of a Christ’s confessing (and honoring unity). Thus my attempt to suggest a form of local confessionalism within the context of a Christ confessing nation.
I have three points to make against neo-Calvinism,
First, the problem with neo-Calvinistic interpretation of sphere soverignty is that areas of exception swallow the rule. Is the family a distinct sphere from the community? Is it a seperate sphere from the Church? What rights does a father have over against the city elders, over the church elders? What are the bounderies. Since all admit the bounderies are not black and white, the point it so fluid as to lose all ability to provide normative answers.
The second problem is this: Christ has given to the Church authority over the Bible. If God’s Word is normative within the family, the state, or the market, it is a problem to say that these spheres have an independent right to interpret God’s Word over against the Church. God has given the good gifts of Pastors and Teachers to interpret and expound His Word to the Church and not to the magistrate, the family, or the acadamy (at least not independently from the Church).
Finally, the neo-Calvinist view of sphere soverignty blurs what is best about subsidiarity. The ability to have diversity exist in unity within a traditional and hierarchical context.
MarkPele
August 2nd, 2006 at 11:36 pm
I’m still struggling to understand Mr. Baus’s delineation of the sovereignty of the state, so I cannot comment too much.
What I would like to question is whether the Church is the only arbiter of the Word of God. The way it is phrased, it looks like the magistrate who really wants to submit to the will of God in passing law needs to go to the Synod for an up or down vote - because the magistrate is somehow incapable of interpreting God’s law. Maybe I’m misunderstanding your point, but I find many examples to the contrary in scripture.
Psalm 2 tells rulers to “kiss the Son” There is no sense that this relationship is brokered through the church.
Deut 17:18-20 commands kings to make a copy of the law. While the copy is made in the presence of the priests (I assume to make sure that the copy is correct), the king is then commanded to keep this copy of the law “It shall be with him and he shall read it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, by carefully observing all the words of this law and these statutes” So, here, the king/magistrate is commanded to interpret the law, and I assume that his vocation - his calling from God, for which God has gifted him - is to interpret God’s law.
MarkPele
August 3rd, 2006 at 11:14 am
Okay, I’m starting to have too many pokers in the fire, but I think I’m starting to get some hints of where some of the major disagreements lie.
I think I have to side a bit with Baus on Sphere Sovereignty. At least with one of the founding principles. Each sphere has direct authority from God to execute its legitimate power, and each sphere is distinct in its influence.
I think Mr. Chellis wants to deny that. For example, saying that the family is the fundamental unit in each sphere. I believe this is incorrect. The fundamental unit is all spheres is the individual. In the family, the individual is joined, by birth and marriage into a unit subject to the authority of a father/husband. In the church, an individual is a covenant member of a body of believers, subject to the authority of the elders. In the state, an individual, by his location is covenantally subjected to the authority of the state.
All of these spheres derive their authority directly from God, and are responsible to him alone for the authority they have in that sphere.
What are the implications of this point? The state can enforce legal obligations between husband and wife, or father and children. The church can excommunicate an individual even to the objections of his parents.
Marriage is an interesting case study. Despite claims to the contrary, marriage is solely within the family. (I hear cries of disgust). Why are the church and state interested in marriage? Because marriage creates a new family, and that family has a different legal status within the state (e.g. adultery requires marriage) as well as within the church (only condoning marriage that is equally yoked). Thus it is wholely appropriate for the state and church to be witnesses at a wedding.
W.H. Chellis
August 3rd, 2006 at 11:46 am
Mark,
You will have to give me more time to tease out the position. I do see the family as the basic unit of society in both church and state but I do not think you have rightly understood the implications. You have confused me with the Patriarchy advocates. This is not where I am going. I think the August column will help clarify some of these issues.
MarkPele
August 3rd, 2006 at 1:38 pm
Bill,
It may very well be a semantic distinction. I believe that both the state and church are required to deal with individuals within the structure of a family. For example, I don’t think a church could refuse the presence of a parent when dealing with a child. Both the state and church have to respect the authority of the parents over children.
So, to that extent, I think that one could say that family is inescapable in church and state, but to use the word unit implies indivisibility. And the indivisibility implies that the covenant head is the only representative - just like the CEO of a company is held to task for the performance of all within the company, or the king in the actions of the country. That’s why I have an indelible association between making the family the fundamental unit and Patriarchy. So, I’m looking forward to your August post.
Christina Hitchcock
August 17th, 2006 at 9:55 pm
The scriptures have authority over the Church, not vice versa. It is the Church’s desire to control the Scriptures that leads to things like papal infallibility.
Christina
Christina Hitchcock
September 8th, 2006 at 3:46 pm
I have to disagree with the idea that the church has authority over Scripture. It is the Scripture which has authority over the Church. It is the desire to control and “finish” the work of Scripture that leads to doctrines like papal infallibility.
Christina
W.H. Chellis
September 8th, 2006 at 4:27 pm
Hi Christina,
Agreed. The Scripture has authority over the church. Yet, God has established the church as the normative expounder of the meaning of scripture.
Without an interpretor the scripture is just a book sitting on a shelf. Who interprets? The civil magistrate? The acadamy? Not-for-profit corporations? For corporate corporations? Whose interpretation is binding when they conflict?
Christina Hitchcock
September 9th, 2006 at 11:26 am
I agree — the Church, by the power of the Holy Spirit, is the interpreter of Scripture (although I wouldn’t limit that just to pastors and teachers). I don’t think “interpretation of” equals “authority over” but that may be well be a difference of semantics.
I agree that the state as such is not the mediator of Scripture. But the implication of several of the posts seems to be that the state is somehow supposed to be mediating the truth of the Scriptures, but (correct me if I’m wrong) doing so under the authority of the Church. This is a troublesome position in more than one way. The search for biblical support of such a position always leads to a comparison between modern nations and ancient Israel, a comparison which is completely unwarranted by Scripture. This idea also leads to a kind of natural theology which says God is working equally (if not somewhat differently) in all human institutions.
But, perhaps I’m seeing the argument going places that it isn’t actually going.
Christina