The Myth of Integralism
Dualism is a dirty word for many on this blog. Several recent comments suggest that to distinguish redemption and creation leads to Hobbes, Rousseau, and Manicheanism. So perhaps a few basic points are again in order.
The Westminster Divines in chapters 20 and 31, for starters, talk about the differences between civil and ecclesiastical power, and also say that the church is not to meddle in matters civil. This is dualism in my view. It suggests that the state has authority over the physical sphere of human existence and the church over the spiritual. Yes, there are overlapping areas, such as that the state’s laws imply morality and churches own property. But the basic point is that the church uses a two-edged spiritual sword for her discipline, the state uses a real one.
If such dualism is disallowed and if you blur these spheres you get crusades and religious warfare. The state not only executes civil justice but also ecclesiastical law. I wish I heard more for the critics of W2K and of dualism that would say, “yes, dualism is bad but we can’t return to the fusion of religion and politics that we saw in the early 17th century.” (By the way, Locke and Hobbes may have had poor accounts of virtue and the good society, but they were addressing the very real problem of religious warfare.)
I don’t see how it helps when the philosophically tedious Kuyperians or Dooyerweerdians get involved. They hold that people either believe in God or they substitute such belief with an idol. Folks may be inconsistent on the ground. But ultimately, they are either believers or disbelievers and all of their perceptions and knowledge flow from there. If I thought this was in any way an accurate account of civil society, I’d move to Northern Manitoba because I don’t know how I could trust governors, police, justices or legislators who were not Christian. Wouldn’t their god-hating ways inevitably catch up with this god-lover?
This is why the example of language was somewhat important, at least to my non-philosophical brain. We exist all the time in a world where we trust the speech of people who aren’t Christians. What is more, they seem to possess this linguistic ability naturally. In which case, if we can trust the goodness (WHICH COMES FROM GOD ALREADY!) of non-Christians language skills, why can’t we trust their abilities to execute justice and run a state agency?
For the life of me, I don’t know why this sort of distinction, between people’s natural abilities and their spiritual gifts, requires me to think creation is evil, as Baus insinuates. I thought that the language example showed that I believe the natural world has all sorts of good. I’m not the one crying for the redemption of everything, including language.
But while I’m at it, I’ll take a stab at defending religious neutrality, in ways comparable to linguistic neutrality. I do think Kuyperians are good Calvinists when they describe the situation of every person — either he or she is a God-fearer, a covenant-keeper (imperfect) or not. So no one is neutral in this sense. But when I go before a judge, and I am identified as a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, I am pretty confident that a non-Christian can still hear my case impartially without condemning me for the creed I confess. (I’m actually worried more about his politics than his theology or lack thereof.)
The same goes for a host of affairs, from car mechanics to baking, from chemistry to history. A Christian is able to bracket his faith and look at the data with a measure of impartiality. A Protestant car mechanic can fix a car made by Roman Catholics without fear of compromising his convictions. A Jewish historian can interpret the history of Calvinism in manner that is full of wisdom and insight. If such impartiality is impossible, then we are in a heap of trouble because no one out there can be trusted.
(If someone thinks this is a caricature of neo-Calvinism, please defend Kuyper and his followers — 50 words or less — in ways that avoid these obvious difficulties. Please also do not use the words “common” or “grace.” As one seminary faculty put it, citing common grace is like dealing from the bottom of the deck.)
Baus
August 22nd, 2007 at 12:25 am
Mr. Hart, I’ve certainly never suggested that distinguishing between creation and redemption leads to Hobbesianism (or whatever). I hope that much is clear.
Neocalvinism distinguishes between creation and redemption. Creation is roughly what we call (for shorthand) ’structure’ and Fall and Redemption are roughly ‘direction.’ You say you’ve read Wolters, so you should know that already. You should also know that redemption as renewal of creation (or sometimes, ‘re-creation’) is not “repristination”. Sometimes it seems you think that’s what is meant.
Anyway, neocalvinism is happy with various dualities. But it is only uncomfortable with “dualisms” –suggesting there are a) only two things involved and b) that these two things are opposed in someway– when neither is actually the case. The antithesis is a real dualism in the sense that only two things are involved and they are in absolute contrast. The distinction between creation and redemption, however, is not such a dualism.
Neither is the distinction between church and state a dualism (since there are other societal communities, and none of them are conflicting per se).
You’ve repeated yourself, so let me. I’ve already said:
“…in confusing the distinction between creation and redemption with The Antithesis, you have inadvertently regarded creation as evil. I have demonstrated how you have done this. Let me do so again:
Hart claims 1) we are dualists concerning language.
question : it is true that redemption does not add to creational structure, but how is that a dualism?
Hart claims 2) dualism is difference between all people (including Christians) in sin and obedience in Christ.
response : that is the antithesis, not the distinction between creation and redemption. To equate the antithesis with the creation-redemption distinction is to regard creation as sin.
Let me address the Augustine issue, since it may be relevant. Besides the distinction between membership in a political community (â€citizenshipâ€) and what the Scripture analogously calls “heavenly citizenshipâ€. There is another distinction between kingdom memberships that is mutually exclusive. The kingdom of sin, evil, darkness, Satan in contrast to the kingdom of redemption. For example, Colossians 1:13-14. If Augustine is making this contrast of kingdoms (ie, the antithesis) then he is not referring to [the state, or various] societal communities as such at all.”
So, instead of caricaturing Kuyperians and Dooyeweerdians and refusing to read more than 50 words on the topic (or less, if any of them is “common grace”)… why don’t you tell us where I’ve gone wrong in my analysis of your claims. I’m open to learn from you, I hope your are willing to reciprocate.
?.Hart’s Dualism.?
/ \
/ \
creation vs. redemption
(natural vs. supernatural)
[physical vs. spiritual]
state vs. church
(impermanent vs. permanent)
all in sin vs. some in Christ
| |
| |
Christians only Christians
& nonChristians
This is how I hear you. You tell us what’s wrong with how I’m hearing you.
Baus
August 22nd, 2007 at 12:31 am
OK… that “graphic” didn’t space correctly. Let me try this:
?.Hart’s Dualism.?
……../..\
……./….\
creation vs. redemption
(natural vs. supernatural)
[physical vs. spiritual]
state vs. church
(impermanent vs. permanent)
all in sin vs. some in Christ
…..|…………….|
…..|…………….|
[Christians..........[only Christians]
& nonChristians]
This is how I hear you. You tell us what’s wrong with how I’m hearing you.
Phil
August 22nd, 2007 at 9:39 am
Perhaps “integralism†isn’t the issue. Perhaps instead this is a conceptual issue: some take the WCF to say that the cult and state are hermetically sealed from one another. Or one may take the WCF to say that cult and state are distinct yet partners under Christ’s reign. Both are dualisms, yet they are radically different.
I believe that the WCF promotes this latter arrangement, a partnership. Thus 31:2 permits magistrates to call synods as “nursing fathers†while he may not administer “the word and sacraments†(23:3) and 31:5 permits synods to address “civil affairs . . . in cases extraordinary†such as the Scottish Covenanters, and it would have worked in Knox’s Scotland against Mary Stuart. Both magistrate and synod are ministers under the same Lord, so one shouldn’t be surprised that they would cooperate.
Note the duality to this arrangement. We have two offices, and they both serve the Christ the Lord. However, W2K doesn’t distinguish such a partnership from (1) Caesaropapism or (2) an imperial papacy.
This also works well with Calvin’s 2K since both magistrates and synods operate, not in the kingdom of conscience in which God alone reigns, but in the human, temporal kingdom of “civil government†and “church laws†(3.19.15) where we are ruled by “human laws, whether made by magistrate or by church . . . (I speak of good and just laws). . .†(4.10.5).
Darryl seems socially concerned to avoid “religious warfare,†and thus he apparently desires to reconstruct society by reshaping our thinking of church and state. That’s very confessional (WLC 135); it’s ALSO very transformational. I wish he were just as socially concerned about WLC 102–121.
Phil
August 22nd, 2007 at 9:42 am
Darryl wrote, “In which case, if we can trust the goodness (WHICH COMES FROM GOD ALREADY!) of non-Christians language skills, why can’t we trust their abilities to execute justice and run a state agency?â€
The difference is that ethics enters much more quickly in the latter: “Can wicked rulers be allied with you, those who frame injustice by statute?†(Psa. 94:20 ESV)
Ethics can also intrude in linguistics, but it takes smarter people.
Creation isn’t evil: it’s radically broken, however, so that we can often see great beauty and perverse ugliness at the same time.
Phil
August 22nd, 2007 at 10:43 am
Merely asking a Christian to “bracket his faith†is offensive: “Jesus, bug off while I engage in auto mechanics, justice, baking, chemistry, or history: I don’t need your redemptive work here.â€
Jesus is my Lord, not simply on Sunday but also on Monday. Thus bracketing my faith is inconceivable; it isn’t on the table.
I say this is one who appeals to natural law all the time. But natural law hasn’t the first thing to say to ethics, for instance, and thus it is ultimately insufficient in the temporal kingdom.
Baus
August 22nd, 2007 at 2:13 pm
Phil, I assume by ‘cult’ you mean any faith community, not just the church of Jesus Christ? Well, either way… cult/church and state should be institutionally sealed off from each other! And Christ reigns over both. But how does that (being sealed-off & under Christ’s reign) offer a radical contrast? It’s not a contrast at all. And how do church and state then become a dualism? They’re not a dualism, there are other societal communities.
A neocalvinist approach to political community is not about whether we can or can’t trust unbelievers to act justly in that community. The fact is, sometimes they will act justly and sometimes they won’t. The neocalvinist approach, then, is about what constitutes political justice.
If you want to talk about a “partnership” between societal communities, specifically between church and state in terms of “nursing and addressing”, you could tell us what you mean by the state “nursing” the church, and what you mean by the “extraordinary cases” when the church can petition the state.
As it is, I’d be more comfortable with Hart’s secularism than with how it seems you’ve muddied the waters.
D Hart
August 22nd, 2007 at 4:41 pm
Baus, the problem with your outline of my view is the insertion of vs. in everything, which may be the lingering effects of making the anti-thesis central to understanding Reformed epistemology. (Why do neo-Calvinists privilege epistemology and not metaphysics?) I have never said that nature and grace, state and church are opposed. Maybe this is a big source of our miscommunication. But if I am arguing for the value of a secular state or for natural linguistic abilities, I’m befuddled how that could be construed as regarding the state or language as evil.
But I do think that creation and redemption are paradoxically related, and that regeneration doesn’t end the paradox. This means that Paul was right to contrast the wisdom of the world with the wisdom of the cross. From each angle the other doesn’t make sense. But even for the Christian who knows the wisdom of the cross, the wisdom of the ancients is not so easily accommodated with the wisdom of the cross. Aristotle looks pretty darned wise to me. But not wise enough to give me the true virtue that I can only find in Christ. (By the way, the wisdom of Aristotle is pretty good for the Christian in my estimate because the Bible reveals only so much.) I also think that in the creation week creation and consummation were paradoxically related. Adam was created good, but not blessed. This is why renewal or restoration of the creation order or re-creation or leaving out consummation as Wolters and Pearcey do is a problem. (Speaking of Wolters, what’s up with his interest in charismatic and Eastern forms of piety?)
Phil, if you can’t bracket your faith, then I don’t want to drive behind you because you will always be letting others go ahead of you and I’ll be sitting at the stop sign forever. I doubt you’ll ever be a good baseball player either because you’ll always strike out to show love to the pitcher. Heaven only knows what you’ll do with a ground ball hit to you at second base since errors are worthy of condemnation.
And what of the example I have used many times, turning the other cheek? Will you as civil magistrate turn the other cheek when someone commits murder? Can’t you appreciate that some kind of bracketing is important? It doesn’t mean that we turn off being Christian. And in cases of conscience we may be forced to give up duties that compromise our allegiance to Christ. But I’ve been trying to argue that Christianity has much more room for negotiating a secular order than your no-bracketing position allows. If Christians really were as inflexible as you allege, then we need to find the old Branch Davidian compound outside Waco and take every square inch captive.
Phil
August 22nd, 2007 at 5:48 pm
Sure—there are other communities. So it’s not just two.
As to cult/church, “church†can sometimes refer to the Body of Christ, wherever they are, whatever they are doing, while sometimes it refers to the cult. But these aren’t the same.
I agree that sometimes the unbeliever will act very morally, at least externally.
The partnership, if it exists, results from Christians living in all spheres of life under Christ’s authority. As to “nursing fathers†and “extraordinary circumstances,†what the Westminster Divines meant is probably more significant than what I think.
I’m probably more Calvinist than neo-Calvinist, but I have profited tremendously from neo-Calvinists.
Andrew Matthews
August 23rd, 2007 at 1:49 pm
Darryl, you make our Lord’s teaching look as if there were no application of it possible in this life. He certainly gave his commands to be comprehensively obeyed, not just in certain select “spheres.”
Phil
August 24th, 2007 at 1:59 pm
Darryl said, “Phil, if you can’t bracket your faith, then I don’t want to drive behind you because you will always be letting others go ahead of you and I’ll be sitting at the stop sign forever.†Etc.
He also said, “Can’t you appreciate that some kind of bracketing is important?†But I’ll get to this later in this post.
On driving, I assume you mean that in response to loving my neighbor as myself I would drive drive like a “sissy.†However, I must also love my neighbors behind me in traffic. Additionally, my neighbors in traffic would be appreciative if we all acted so as to keep the traffic moving smoothly. So driving as you suggested could not follow from a transformative approach to negotiating traffic.
If I were playing softball, I assure you that I’d whack the ball over the left field fence every time I got the chance. (I never played baseball—I grew up in the boonies.) And at the mid-inning I might go past my pitcher-friend and say, “Hey, buddy! You shouldn’t make it so easy for me!†We always had great respect for those who could send the ball over the fielder’s head, who could make diving catches, who could beat the shortstop’s throw to first base, etc.
Transformation is quite vigorous, probably too vigorous for W2K; sissified sports aren’t an option.
Concerning the civil magistrate, Calvin certainly had transformational traits, as VanDrunen agrees, but Calvin didn’t turn the other cheek for Servetus. Calvin desired another form of capital punishment, but never did he advise the city council to “turn the other cheek.†Yet Calvin personally visited Servetus as his execution approached, charitably demonstrating his concern for the man; another part of Calvin’s charity was advocating another form of execution. Thus we see Calvin with a sword in one hand and a cup of cold water in the other, without insincerity in either case: for the good of society, Servetus should die, yet because Servetus was an Image Bearer, Calvin could still demonstrate compassion.
It would be similar if I were the magistrate in a murder case: I must love the guilty man, but I must love the God who calls for his death. The transformational thinker will attempt to coordinate all of God’s Word, attempting to love the guilty man, the victim’s family, society, and especially God.
So indeed a kind of bracketing occurs: if I were the judge in this murder case, I would bracket my “cup of cold water†from my sword. If I were bringing him his last meal, I would sincerely aim to make it the very best possible: I would not poison him or stick a dagger in him as I delivered his meal. Yet if I were the executioner, when the time arrived, while I would still do what I could for him in charity, I would not hesitate to flip the switch and thus unleash magisterial fury.
Yes, this is a kind of bracketing, such as bracketing my individual responsibilities from my social responsibilities. But never Christianity.
D Hart
August 26th, 2007 at 8:09 am
Phil and Andrew, what is our Lord’s design for plumbing? If Christianity seeps into all of life, what is the best farm policy for the United States? Do you ever say, I don’t know? I sure would hate for you to find a biblical text to support subsidies for tobacco farmers.
stevez
August 27th, 2007 at 10:57 am
Does there not seem a difference between saying “the Gospel (faith, or whatever you want to call it) follows us into every nook and cranny of life” and “the Gospel has something to say about every nook and cranny of life”?
Whenever I suggest to my trnasformer friends the idea that the Gospel has no direct or obvious bearing on this life I think they gasp so loudly because they think I mean to negate the former statement, which is to say, the Gospel is useless or un-meaningful. But that is not what a covenant-keeper could ever possibly mean(!).
Crass as it may seem, I have always viewed the Gospel being like a balloon tied to my wrist. It follows me everywhere…it and its subsequent demands of me to be a covenant-keeper. But where a balloon hovers over me at my desk and necessarily affects my work or how I go about my husbanding or parenting or playing, voting, etc., etc., it tells me absolutely nothing about I should *actually do* those things. While very present, it is quite silent in many ways.
Steve
stevez
August 27th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
“…in confusing the distinction between creation and redemption with The Antithesis, you have inadvertently regarded creation as evil…To equate the antithesis with the creation-redemption distinction is to regard creation as sin.”
“But if I am arguing for the value of a secular state or for natural linguistic abilities, I’m befuddled how that could be construed as regarding the state or language as evil.”
Maybe the confusion is over the difference between being dualistic and being duplicitous? Is there not a difference between having presuppositions that cannot be violated and simply dismissing something out of hand?
In my Transformer circles I get confused for being a Creation hating, Gnostic-Fundamentalist regularly. I have a permanant crick in the left side of my neck from turning around so much to make sure the charge is in fact at me and not some multi-color haired, sandwich board freak behind me.
The logical result, evidently, is that I must hate creation since I see no need to redeem it, that it’s (imperfectly) good as-is, that God alone will (perfectly) redeem it eventually, and to meanwhile pass the bread and wine. Ironic, since a big part of what drove me from Evangelicalism was its intense world-flight piety (which I never really bought as a born and raised pagan anyway) and to a strapping world-affirming one in the Reformation. This charge of being anti-material is one of the oddest things I have encountered.
Steve
stevez
August 27th, 2007 at 6:21 pm
Now that i think about it some more, this whole notion of creation needing any measure of redemption seems prefaced upon the notion that creation is somehow lacking. It may be an overstatement, but I have always wondered if the creation-needs-redemption model is itself anti-creational inasmuch as it sees something lacking enough in creation that it results in the monumental efforts of Transformationalism. When I came to Reformation and found myself immersed in Reformed Transformation-ville I wondered if I had really left behind (pun intended) the world-flight dogma’s of Evangelicalism: why all the Christian sub-culture? Isn’t culture as-is the only legitimate one and isn’t any effort to create another one a project in illegitimacy? Why does Tim Keller want to “change or transform NYC” if he doesn’t presume something to be essentially wrong her in the first place?
Steve
Phil
August 27th, 2007 at 8:24 pm
Darryl, about a month ago I was in a protracted disagreement with one of your past colleagues concerning this very issue. Several times he brought up the vocation, “baking,†so I took him up on it since I knew something about it. While I’m sure one could have done a better job, he never once criticized any microscopic or macroscopic elements of my description of what a transformational view of baking would be like. Yet afterwards he was as adamantly opposed as before—as if I had said nothing at all. It’s as if a discussion concerning transformation is unwanted by W2K.
So my question: what if I could point you to a book-length, transformational treatment of plumbing, farm policy such as tobacco subsidies, or another similarly challenging vocation? Would you consider it seriously, or would I be wasting my time?
Phil
August 27th, 2007 at 8:26 pm
Darryl,
1. As to whether I would ever say, “I don’t know,†of course I would. A detailed discussion of a given vocation should be reserved to someone with an intimate knowledge of it; my knowledge is necessarily very limited. See #4.
2. Of course I agree that the Bible isn’t a calculus textbook, a plumbing handbook, or a graduate text on agricultural policy. I have never suggested anything like these. Rather, the Bible gives a framework for understanding life.
3. For what it’s worth, I have no principled reason to oppose subsidies for tobacco farmers.
4. Consider this model: bring someone with a terminal degree in biblical studies (biblical interpretation or theology) together with someone with a terminal degree in a secular discipline. If we hire the right personnel, we can make things pop.
Phil
August 27th, 2007 at 8:37 pm
Steve, rather than a balloon tied around my wrist, I think of Rom. 12:1–2 in which my entire body is a sacrifice, including my transformed mind. Even if I knew how to carve my life into pieces, some for Sunday’s public worship (the Right Hand Kingdom/RHK) and other pieces for Monday’s labors (the Left Hand Kingdom/LHK), all of those pieces, body and mind, are to be offered without reservation to our salvation-bringing God.
Then, whatever I do or say, whether in the LHK or RHK, is to be done “in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.†This specifically finds application in the common vocations, even if I were a chattel slave, because even as I engage in that labor I serve “the Lord Christ†(Col. 3:17, 24).
stevez
August 28th, 2007 at 8:31 am
Phil,
I am not sure how “a sacrificial life” translates into the stuff of Transformationalism.
If “we can make things pop,” and if I understand what you mean by that, I ask the same question I ask the Transformers around me: so why hasn’t Christendom bagged a better game on the world stage yet? Why is the state of man and his world really no different than it ever was, even with the presence of the Church? Why haven’t things “popped”? I mean, it’s not as if you are the first one to bring these notions together–others have thought the same thing all through history and still nothing seems any better or worse for it.
Another presupposition that seems always resident within the scheme here is an odd view of history. The Teacher says, “Whatever has been will be again, there is nothing new under the sun.” And Jesus says, “The poor you will always have with you.” But if Transformationism is correct, how can these things be? How can the Author of Scripture be so, what (?), pessimistic, unhopeful and uninspired? Or is it simply a worldly wisdom that recognizes the state of things, uninspired as it may be? Your system presupposes that as time marches on things get better or that things change. But reality teaches something else. This reality of ours remains fixed and constant in the center; what whirls around it is a storm of what appears to be changes and differences across time and place. But at the heart of it is that fixed reality that nothing is new. (This isn’t to say that things are getting worse either, contra more chicken-little views of history–for every good thing I can show you a bad thing and vice versa.) The problem seems to be that people get distracted with that whirling wind and forget that at the center of things nothing is new, that man and his world remain utterly and excruciatingly the same.
Steve
D Hart
August 28th, 2007 at 8:42 am
Steve, would the balloon be at all like baptism? I’m always suspicious — post WWJD — of things tied to wrists. I do think your point about Keller and NYC is spot on.
Phil, I probably wouldn’t read a book on Christian baking, but I would read the dust jacket copy, which could persuade me to read parts of the book. Do you want to try to persuade me to read the book? Also, since you have no principled opposition to subsidies for tobacco farmers, do you have principled support? If not, then maybe tobacco subsidies are religiously neutral. Welcome to the W2K club.
stevez
August 28th, 2007 at 9:11 am
“Steve, would the balloon be at all like baptism? I’m always suspicious — post WWJD — of things tied to wrists.”
(Speaking of that fad, I have a funny story I love to tell. At one point in a very different time I did some interning at Wedgewood here in Transformer-ville with teens so troubled they were locked behind two doors. A newbie came to intake one day and asked what the acronym stood for. Without missing a beat, one worldly wise girl said, “Wedge Wood Juvenile Deliquents.” She was a breath of fresh air to those who have hears to hear.)
But, yes, let’s go with baptism if that makes you feel better. My daughters’ wrists and foreheads are clean as whistles.
Steve
Phil
August 29th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
Steve said, “Why does Tim Keller want to ‘change or transform NYC’ if he doesn’t presume something to be essentially wrong [t]her[e] in the first place?â€
Then Darryl said, “I do think your point about Keller and NYC is spot on.â€
How could anyone walk through NYC and think that sin is not stamped across many things in our cities, whether NYC or Philadelphia or elsewhere?
I got to visit several Christian schools in Philadelphia a few years ago: Spruce Hill Christian School, Philadelphia Mennonite High School, and Center City Academy. I left this visit amazed at how broken Philly was, and how different schools, via professing Christians, were attempting to pick up the pieces by creating social structures to solve structural problems. At the Spruce Hill school, a few days before we arrived, one of the student’s father had been shot and killed: he tried to stop a fight, and was murdered for “interfering.†At the Mennonite school, a hallway bulletin board, student poetry reflected ongoing immorality which we took to be indicative of typical inner city, broken families. I was highly impressed at Tenth Presbyterian Church’s desire to persuade people to move into the city to work to solve Philadelphia’s problems from the bottom-up.
So when I hear that Tim Keller similarly prays for transformation in NYC, I heartily say, “Amen!†We should all do this: “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven†(WLC 191–192; Heidelberg Lord’s Day 48–49): “. . . that is, so govern us by Thy Word and Spirit, that we submit ourselves to Thee always more and more; preserve and increase Thy Church; destroy the works of the devil, every power that exalts itself against Thee, and all wicked devices formed against Thy Holy Word, until the fullness of Thy kingdom come, wherein Thou shalt be all in all.â€
Do we not see many instances of the Devil’s works in our cities? If so, then isn’t Tim Keller quite confessional for his concern?
Phil
August 29th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
Darryl wrote, “Also, since you have no principled opposition to subsidies for tobacco farmers, do you have principled support? If not, then maybe tobacco subsidies are religiously neutral. Welcome to the W2K club.â€
You could put the amount of time I’ve spent thinking about agricultural policy in a thimble; my calling has taken me elsewhere.
However, I can imagine that one MIGHT satisfy the requirement to love his neighbor by promoting subsidies for tobacco farmers. On the other hand, this increases government, and love for neighbor COULD also be pursued by avoiding excessive government (Prov. 28:2). So a number of things must be weighed.
No transformational thinker would say that the Bible is an agricultural policy textbook, and no one is opposed to nuance. Yet the Bible does provide a framework for thinking about agricultural policy, even as I briefly sketched above.
Is this “religiously neutral� If you mean “cultically neutral,†then I probably agree with you heartily. If you mean neutral with regard to the Christian faith (as I think you do), then I heartily disagree.
If W2K meant acknowledging ambivalence or nuance (but not neutrality, as you wrote), I would be happy to subscribe. But if it means that the Bible should be excluded, or that Jesus hasn’t received all authority even there, then I must strenuously resist.
stevez
August 29th, 2007 at 1:45 pm
Phil,
You can reverse all the perceived ills you list off and the Most High is *still* coming to judge the living and the dead. Are those all you can come up with? Seems to me that we’d have an easier time counting the grains of sand on the beach than in listing all of society’s ills due to sin. And are we to believe that Pleasantville, USA *doesn’t* need transformation, based upon your assumptions? I guess places like Grand Rapids where children are clean cut and obedient, all mothers stay home and dote, the streets are clean and nobody mows his lawn on the Sabbath have arrived?
I for one love NYC and wouldn’t change a thing. But inasmuch as American piety has activism coursing through its DNA, this is one of *the dumbest* things any Christian could be caught saying (there, I said it for you, Phil, so you wouldn’t have to. You are a very nice guy).
Does God judge us because we are or because we are sinners? Seems to me the answer to that question may be at the root of why anyone thinks NYC or any place has to be transformed.
And I still want to know from you why things have not “popped” yet, why the two great tastes that should go great together still render an odd aftertaste, why Christendom (whether in conventional expressions that seek intstiutional “outside in” transformation or those like Keller’s which say those are out and more “missional” agendas to change things from “the inside out”) still hasn’t bagged a better game and made things more right in the world? Why, after hundreds of years, hasn’t the Church made this place any better than it ever was? Why do all the things you list above *still* happen? Why hasn’t “Christian science” fended off earthquakes and hurricanes and found ways to prevent autism; and why in “Christian regimes” people still go hungry and persecuted and get shot? Why does nothing seem to work?
Steve
Steve
Phil
August 29th, 2007 at 6:48 pm
Steve, I fully agree that Jesus is coming to judge the living and the dead, and we should all dearly look forward to this since sin will not be eradicated in our lives until then.
Does Pleasantville, USA, need to be transformed? Of course it does. Same with Grand Rapids. Why? Do we not see sin even in believers’ lives? Then transformation is appropriate.
Why does God judge us? Because we are sinners, of course. The problem is a fallen creation, not creation itself. But fallenness is pervasive: we can see that just by looking at ourselves.
You wonder “why things have not ‘popped’ yet.†But transformation is not identical to postmillennialism; success is God’s problem, not ours. All one needs to be a transformationalist is to be persuaded that Christ has received all authority, and that we should therefore seek to transform the nations.
So “transformation†probably requires an optimistic view of this age, not because things are going so well, or that we possess the ability to turn things around, but because Jesus Christ reigns and therefore has the ability and the will to do as he will. This is a huge difference from W2K in that this view doesn’t even believe that Jesus Christ reigns in the Left Hand Kingdom (as per Hart and VanDrunen).
Phil
August 29th, 2007 at 7:42 pm
Darryl wrote concerning baking, “Do you want to try to persuade me to read the book?â€
Allow me to back up for a moment. It appears that two basic W2K theses are these:
1. (EXISTENCE) There does not exist a transformative approach to any subset of the Left Hand Kingdom. (You claim this thesis when you doubt that one could give a transformative approach to tobacco policy, plumbing, etc.)
2. (ETHICS) One should not pursue transformation in any subset of the Left Hand Kingdom. (You claim this thesis when you say that transformation harms the gospel.)
So if #1 is false, #2 is obviously irrelevant.
If I have stated the above fairly, the existence thesis is an immensely difficult thesis for W2K to sustain. For one to prove this thesis, one either must examine every alleged transformative approach and show that it fails, or one must demonstrate that transformation necessarily contradicts some truth. But on the other hand, opposing this thesis is quite easy: all I have to do is demonstrate a single instance of transformation, which becomes a counterexample to falsify #1.
Concerning such a counterexample, whether either of us likes it is irrelevant: as long as it demonstrates what transformation claims to do, it’s good enough.
But transformational literature abounds with examples in the LHK: (1) Calvin or Rutherford on a biblical view of political resistance, (2) St. Olaf College, Calvin College, Union University, or Liberty University on a Christian approach to the collegiate academics, (3) Gillespie’s response to Williams’s Bloudy Tenant, (4) Poythress’s demonstration (2006) that the scientific method intrinsically relies on Christian theology, etc., nearly ad infinitum. Whether you approve of any of these is not the point here—that’s the ethical thesis, and that’s for later.
To demonstrate #1, you have to show that all the instances that I *might* offer fails. How would you do that? Is there some truth that transformation necessarily contradicts?
Do you have an argument to demonstrate the truth of #1?
Phil
August 29th, 2007 at 7:43 pm
Darryl, suppose that existence thesis is false: there are many transformative approaches, some better than others. Now consider #2, the claim that transformation is ethically flawed:
Is it wrong to pursue transformation? I’ve heard adumbrated the claim that transformation harms the gospel, but I honestly don’t know how this argument would run. Please fill me in.
D Hart
August 29th, 2007 at 10:20 pm
Phil, if I recommended reading A Secular Faith would that work? It has lots of examples from the history of American Protestantism where the effort to Christianize (some would call it transform) the U.S. did not work out so well for maintaining the integrity of the gospel. One example is the Social Gospel. Does it automatically follow that transformation leads to liberalism? Maybe not. But as Machen argued, once you appeal to the ethical parts of the Bible apart from their redemptive core, you’ve made the Bible say exactly the opposite of what it says. So using the Bible to tell non-Christians to be good, without telling them that the Bible gives a radically different account of how Christians are good, is to harm the gospel.
stevez
August 30th, 2007 at 8:38 am
Phil,
Let’s try 1 Cor 5.
“1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
“6Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.
“9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
“12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”
How does someone speak this way if he has Transformationalist presuppositions? It seems as though the concern here is really for the Church. And unless it gets missed amongst those of us more literalistic, this seems especially true when he says, “What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?†Maybe we could ask What Would Paul Say about notions to transform NYC?
I will repeat an example. My own Transformer church recently baptized her third child out of wedlock to the same mother (my chaffing about this is subdued by assurances that things are being handled sufficiently in a therapeutic manner). At the same time, we just signed a petition against a local strip joint. I hate using loaded words, but hypocrisy and self-assured righteousness and scandal come fairly readily. It’s a nice idea to believe ours is a project to sop up the messes of the world, but when we can’t even keep our own houses in order perhaps we need to think again (?)
“All one needs to be a transformationalist is to be persuaded that Christ has received all authority, and that we should therefore seek to transform the nations.”
I do believe the former, but how it leads to that conclusion I don’t. I think the better conclusion would be “that we should therefore seek to hold out the Gospel to the nations.” Actually, my confessionalist streak says that the faith is to be perpetuated first through covenental families, then to the stranger…but that may be beside the point.
Steve
Phil
August 30th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
Darryl asked if reading A Secular Faith would work, presumably to show that transformation is an invalid construct.
I don’t think so: your instances illustrate failures (although I question some of your readings), but pointing to lots of failures isn’t the same as showing that a concept is invalid. It’s a little like Edison’s many, many failures: they do not prove that electric bulbs are impossible.
But I’m not asking for “just another chance to do it rightâ€: I think a lot of people are doing it pretty well right now, and I’m a first-hand witness to their many efforts. None of us can do so adequately, however, because not all of Christ’s enemies are under his feet: I’m afraid even believers are not fully submitted to Christ (except for Arminian perfectionists!). Thus even the most optimistic transformationist cannot expect full success until Christ returns. In the meantime, we press on. So yes, this certainly is the penultimate age.
Another point: success isn’t the sine qua non for transformationists, but faithfulness to Christ is.
Yes, I have read your A Secular Faith: it has been on my desk for months, and I have highlighted and annotated it, profusely in some places.
Then you wrote, “So using the Bible to tell non-Christians to be good, without telling them that the Bible gives a radically different account of how Christians are good, is to harm the gospel.†But that cannot be true: God writes his moral Law on everyone’s heart (WLC 96), even in the pagan nations prior to the incarnation, most of whom never heard anything approximating the gospel. Thus God himself told “non-Christians to be good [from the Law written non-salvifically on their hearts], without telling them that the Bible gives a radically different account of how Christians are good.†Q.E.D.
I’m looking for a proof that transformation is logically or theologically unstable or contradictory, not examples where it went awry. You show the latter but not the former in Secular. A zillion problems cannot demonstrate the former (unless I’m misrepresenting my math background).
See—I believe that this age is penultimate, and we should pursue nuance and even ambiguity in this age! Yet Christ is my overlord: many distinctions remain, but he reigns over them all.
Phil
August 30th, 2007 at 8:12 pm
Steve, concerning 1 Cor. 5, what was Paul’s business to condemn those outside the church? None: he was an gospel minister, an apostle.
But what about the Christian called to be a magistrate? Will they judge those outside the church? Of course they will. And how? Will they not, at least in part, judge outsiders according to the moral Law written on everyone’s heart (Rom. 2)? So Paul clearly has no problem with Christians judging those outside the church, as we see from Rom. 13. Furthermore, in the USA, every citizen is a micro-magistrate and must judge righteous judgment when selecting representative magistrates.
You’re reasoning like an Anabaptist in your argument, as if Christians have no role to play in government.
I’m sorry about your church. But a bad attempt doesn’t mean that righteous attempts are impossible (or even difficult).
I wrote, “All one needs to be a transformationalist is to be persuaded that Christ has received all authority [Matt. 28:18], and that we should therefore seek to discipleize (or transform) the nations [Matt 28:19].â€
You don’t accept the conclusion, but that is Christ’s conclusion, not mine. I inserted the references above. Note especially that for the verb “disciple†or “discipleize,†the object is “ethnos,†not “volunteers from the ethnos.â€
As to NYC, we differ here because you do not believe that Christ reigns over the nations, while I do (Rev. 1:5). So I pray and work to see more of Christ’s enemies under his footstool today (Psa. 110), knowing that the last enemy will not be destroyed until the end (1 Cor. 15).
NYC has a magazine called City Journal; in an article entitled “The Ill Turn of the Native: How Homegrown Terrorists Are Born†(Aug. 21, 2007), the author explores the problem of Islamic terrorists growing up in NYC. In this article it’s clear that the NYPD, unlike you, does not think that NYC should stay just the way it is. Rather, changes must be made for NYC citizens’ safety (and for the 6th Commandment). Love for God and love for neighbor have implications for this problem; that’s the moral Law of God. That’s all I’m saying.
stevez
August 31st, 2007 at 1:08 pm
Steve, concerning 1 Cor. 5, what was Paul’s business to condemn those outside the church? None: he was an gospel minister, an apostle.
But what about the Christian called to be a magistrate? Will they judge those outside the church? Of course they will. And how? Will they not, at least in part, judge outsiders according to the moral Law written on everyone’s heart (Rom. 2)? So Paul clearly has no problem with Christians judging those outside the church, as we see from Rom. 13. Furthermore, in the USA, every citizen is a micro-magistrate and must judge righteous judgment when selecting representative magistrates.
SZ: Fine; I can live with Xians having feet in both kingdoms. But it depends on what you mean by “judging.†Paul’s category for “judging†was not anything like what you and I do when we “do earth.†His was rigid and narrow and religiously oriented, and the end result was to allow for the possibility to expel, excommunicate. When you and I “judge in the KoM†we are not saying we are excommunicating those who disagree on what to do about foreign policy. The two ways of “judging†are completely different, Phil.
You’re reasoning like an Anabaptist in your argument, as if Christians have no role to play in government.
SZ: I once had an exchange with a mainliner who quipped that Xians ought not be involved in politics because they might be led to compromise the apparent call to be pacifists. He felt my ire. But he wouldn’t have felt it had I not the presupposition that Xians are full-blown citizens of the KoM in every lawful regard, which means they may have a role to play in government. And maybe you and I find ourselves there, Phil, and we disagree about what to do about some given policy. Is that plausible in your mind, or do we have to have the same opinion about how to order society because we met at the communion rail last Sunday, where we are supposed to be in ruthless agreement?
I’m sorry about your church. But a bad attempt doesn’t mean that righteous attempts are impossible (or even difficult).
SZ: True enough. The problem becomes one of principle though. Should we be petitioning the strip joint even if we handled our affairs correctly? I say no. If I said yes then you’d have a point. Also, my fear is that this is commonplace, not one bad example, because the presumption is that we should be mopping up the city.
I wrote, “All one needs to be a transformationalist is to be persuaded that Christ has received all authority [Matt. 28:18], and that we should therefore seek to discipleize (or transform) the nations [Matt 28:19].â€
You don’t accept the conclusion, but that is Christ’s conclusion, not mine. I inserted the references above. Note especially that for the verb “disciple†or “discipleize,†the object is “ethnos,†not “volunteers from the ethnos.â€
SZ: No, Phil. Your problem is in your definition of terms. To disciple is not to transform. You glibly assume the terms are synonymous, and that is at the heart of this row.
As to NYC, we differ here because you do not believe that Christ reigns over the nations, while I do (Rev. 1:5). So I pray and work to see more of Christ’s enemies under his footstool today (Psa. 110), knowing that the last enemy will not be destroyed until the end (1 Cor. 15).
SZ: I thought we settled that? I believe that Christ reigns over the nations. The State and the Church are His legitimate viceroys. They have different missions though. Your fundamental flaw is not properly discerning between Spirit (disciple) and sword (transform…both of which also go to my last response above about the heart of this row).
NYC has a magazine called City Journal; in an article entitled “The Ill Turn of the Native: How Homegrown Terrorists Are Born†(Aug. 21, 2007), the author explores the problem of Islamic terrorists growing up in NYC. In this article it’s clear that the NYPD, unlike you, does not think that NYC should stay just the way it is. Rather, changes must be made for NYC citizens’ safety (and for the 6th Commandment). Love for God and love for neighbor have implications for this problem; that’s the moral Law of God. That’s all I’m saying.
SZ: my “not change a thing†has been fodder for much misunderstanding, but I still don’t regret it. Don’t turn this into a debate over how to handle terrorists and latently accuse me of being un-patriotic per whatever neo-con impulses you may be harboring and can’t wait to spring. I have an opinion about those things because I do in fact care about our world and our little quarter of the KoM called America (so save any antinomian charges for now). But they have got nothing directly to do with what we are talking about. Stay with me and don’t get Whiggishly distracted.
Steve
Phil
August 31st, 2007 at 8:09 pm
Steve, when you agree that Christ reigns over the nations, you disagree with Darryl (email on July 14) and with David VanDrunen (email on July 13). There’s a reason why they deny this, and it’s fundamental to the question of transformation.
You don’t understand what I mean by transformation as you showed above: “Spirit (disciple) and sword (transform. . .)â€; this is not a transformational parallelism. I have read a lot from various transformationalists, but none I have ever read would ever approve of the sword for transformation: the sword is for national defense and capital punishment.
Perhaps your transformational church would use the sword to advance the Kingdom of Christ, but I cannot, and I doubt that they would.
Phil
September 1st, 2007 at 8:22 am
Steve, here’s another reason to distinguish the sword from transformation: several current Anabaptist scholars are advocating a Niebuhr-like transformation.
One example is Duane K. Friesen (Bethel College in Kansas), and another is Craig A. Carter (Tyndale University College and Seminary in Toronto); you can find both at Amazon.com. Unfortunately, I cannot give you a theological basis for Anabaptist transformation as I can for Reformed transformation. In fact, I doubt that the Anabaptists can justify themselves, but I’m happy they come this far.
They explicitly see their transformational roles as parallel to Augustine, Cromwell, Calvin’s Geneva, Puritan England and New England, with this distinction: they distance themselves from “Christendom,†by which they primarily mean the use of the sword, whether for national or self defense, or for capital punishment.
Here’s another reason why your parallelism, “Spirit (disciple) and sword (transform. . .)â€, does not hold.
stevez
September 4th, 2007 at 10:08 am
Phil, I wondered if you might take that tack. But I am not talking about the legitimate use of the sword in the LHK. We may live in a “separation of church and state†context, but that doesn’t keep the flesh from still picking up the sword to do the Church’s task. There are multiple ways to use the sword. One is old-school Christendom—you know, the more objectivistic or institutional approach of the sword. The other edge of the sword still takes its cues from the spirit of this age. It may be to beat a dead horse, but I think our friend Keller still serves as good example of how we have figured out enough to depose that rusty side of the sword and brandish the cleaner one. Instead of an outside-in approach that seeks to force the faith onto the hearts of men, Keller’s missional approach wants to wow them; instead of transforming the institutions he wants to transform the people in them. That may sound good. But I still say there is a difference between converting souls and sending them out into the good world than transforming them in order to “take over†the world. True, it’s not your grandfather’s sword, but it’s still a sword, just a kinder, gentler use is all. It still depends upon the might of the flesh to affect that which shall only come by God’s hand alone.
But counter to Kellerism, as folksy as it may sound, the only ordination I have is over my own household. As such, there are only two people in the world I may even hope to “transform,†my two covenant children. Of course, I prefer the terms “shape, mold or nurture (their souls)†over transform. The latter is just such a power phrase and seems to neglect that, even though I am ordained to such power over my children to write myself up one side and down the other all over and inside and out of them, most days it seems like this, too, is farce (!). But I know it isn’t as my own parents’ writing is all over me. I have enough to do with two covenant children. I will leave the more optimistic “we are the world†efforts to those who have convinced themselves they have, by virtue of faith, transcended their own humanity and know something the unbeliever doesn’t in his common endeavor to “do earth.†In the meantime, somebody, please just pass the bread and wine and I will get out of your way.
BTW, in your list of anecdotal woes endemic to NYC you forgot the fact that therein lays Wall Street. Oh, so many things to transform, so little time, ability and calling from on high to do so.
Steve
Phil
September 4th, 2007 at 2:18 pm
Please tell me how you know that “Keller’s missional approach wants to wow them.†Please be specific: where does he say (or imply) that impressing anyone is his goal?
stevez
September 4th, 2007 at 2:33 pm
Phil,
Do you think you could still get across what you mean to say without using the nomenclature of “transform,†or is that indispensable to your meaning?
Steve
stevez
September 4th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
“Steve, when you agree that Christ reigns over the nations, you disagree with Darryl (email on July 14) and with David VanDrunen (email on July 13).”
Actually, I never agreed that you interpreted their own answer to you correctly, if you recall. That was my main point back to you. You concluded from your questions a statement you never asked them directly. Their answer wasn’t that Christ doesn’t reign over the nations, it was that He reigns over all things, just differently. I characterized your conclusion as being similar to one supervisor overseeing two different employees differently and one of them concluding that the supervisor has no authority over him.
Steve
Phil
September 4th, 2007 at 6:19 pm
Steve says, “Their answer wasn’t that Christ doesn’t reign over the nations, it was that He reigns over all things, just differently.â€
I asked David VanDrunen for his evaluation of this statement: “JESUS: The Son of God as REDEEMER reigns over the RHK, but not the LHK. The Son of God as CREATOR reigns over the LHK as well as the RHK (holding the bread and wine together, for instance). Of course, the Triune God reigns over both, but differently in each.â€
This is his complete response to me: “Could be elaborated, but true as it stands.â€
Phil
September 4th, 2007 at 6:19 pm
Steve asked if the word “transform†is necessary for my meaning.
No. But I do not avoid it, either.
Phil
September 4th, 2007 at 6:29 pm
I did not respond as well as I should have to Darryl’s question, “Phil, if I recommended reading A Secular Faith would that work? It has lots of examples from the history of American Protestantism where the effort to Christianize (some would call it transform) the U.S. did not work out so well for maintaining the integrity of the gospel.â€
This was his response when I tried to state a W2K claim: “There does not exist a transformative approach to any subset of the Left Hand Kingdom.â€
I should have said this: anecdotal evidence never establishes a trend, such as the alleged trend that every transformative attempt necessarily fails. Anecdotes can give a “thick description†to help us crawl inside someone’s head, but you probably need something like a simple, random sample here. I doubt that this is possible.
That’s why I would have preferred a logical or theological argument.
At the root, my reasons for promoting transformation are theological, and they do not flow from the successes or failures of others.
stevez
September 5th, 2007 at 11:10 am
Phil, as to the email exchanges with Hart and DVD: here is the problem. You said, “The Triune God reigns over both but differently in each.” DVD basically agrees, as would I. But then you conclude on your own that what is being said is that “Christ does not reign over the nations.” Not only is the problem that you never gave them a chance to respond to *that* conclusion, but it simply doesn’t even follow what they agreed to. How can someone at once say, “Christ reigns over both but He doesn’t?”
As to Keller, I will admit that my rendering of his “wowing†is fairly impressionistic. But read his 3 page tract called “The Missional Church.†He uses a lot of post-modern buzzwords like “tolerance†and “counter-cultural†to make those who sign up for transformation seminars feel like they are being “relevant†and “meaningful†in a post-Christendom age. After all, who really wants to be associated with Bible-thumping, cranky, life-sapping, hellfire-and-brimstone, sandwich-board curmudgeons simply irritated by the fact that they are at the bottom of the cultural heap? I sure don’t. He is appealing to a set of generational felt needs that is correctly exhausted by the efforts of institutional Christendom, especially as it has formed another burned-over district in its adoption of high-gear activistic efforts—political, moral, social and cultural. But like Bill, what he gives with one hand he takes away with the other insofar as he simply ups the ante by calling on sinners to be “authentic and real.†That’s the very problem, isn’t it? When we are “authentic and real†we are pretty ugly. Can Calvinists really be comfortable with sinners being “authentic� The call to be authentic is quite post-modern insofar as it is anti-institutional, and post-moderns eat that stuff up with a spoon. I think Keller represents just more warmed-over American pietism in Reformed dress. It is understandable inasmuch as it wants to turn conventional Christendom on its head. Think David Kuo, the Administration’s former point man for the Faith-Based initiatives. Whatever immediate and debatable problems attended his tenure, he still exited saying that no government programs will fix anything (OK, I am with you so far)…we all just need to “get real†and be the best Christians we can be and that will take care of it (huh? What just happened?).
As to the language of “transformation,†don’t words matter? The more you and I speak the more our meanings seem very different to me. I would deliberately avoid transform. Seems to me, that after hearing you on all this, transform captures well what you mean to say.
Steve
D Hart
September 5th, 2007 at 11:34 am
Phil, I have tried lots of theology. You just don’t agree with it. I’ve appealed to Paul on the distinction between things eternal and temporal, to the difference between justification and sanctification, to the difference between the physical and eternal swords or the different jurisdictions of church and state, and to Reformed teaching on the kingdom of Christ. None of this seems to matter.
So here’s what the issue seems to be. You say that Christ rules over all things. So do I. You see that rule as non-existent if “all things” aren’t being sanctified. This position seems to fly in the face of both the ongoing presence of sin in the lives of believers, and in the mingling of believers and non-believers in this age of redemptive history. In other words, you are admirable in your desire for the eradication of sin in our lives. Yet, you seem to be impatient with the way the Lord, who rules all things, is getting rid of sin.
Is that theological enough?