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	<title>Comments on: Visible church, again</title>
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	<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/09/19/visible-church-again/</link>
	<description>Christ&#039;s Kingdom sacred and secular</description>
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		<title>By: W.H. Chellis</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/09/19/visible-church-again/#comment-1506</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[W.H. Chellis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 19:16:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Let me give a better answer Peter.
You asked:
&quot;to turn the question back to you: Does â€œlegal and covenantalâ€ include some sort of personal union with Christ? Or is it a â€œmerely externalâ€ link? Are you meaning to contrast â€œlegalâ€ to â€œorganicâ€ or something similar?&quot;

The Protestant Scholastics hashed through this difficulty in a way that I find satisifying.  I am saying that the covenant and election overlap but not perfectly.  You can be in the covenant but not elect.  We are agreed about this.
But this is exactly the what Protestant Orthodoxy (Olevianus and Turretin, for instance) meant when it distinguished the essence from the administration of the covenant.

The beauty of Scholasticism was the ability to take into account the &quot;whole counsel of God&quot; and thus be able to hedge our bets and make proper distinctions.

So, if you are part of the administration of the covenant you have a true union with Christ&#039;s ecclesial body (administration) but not His mystical body (essence).

Would you agree with that?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me give a better answer Peter.<br />
You asked:<br />
&#8220;to turn the question back to you: Does â€œlegal and covenantalâ€ include some sort of personal union with Christ? Or is it a â€œmerely externalâ€ link? Are you meaning to contrast â€œlegalâ€ to â€œorganicâ€ or something similar?&#8221;</p>
<p>The Protestant Scholastics hashed through this difficulty in a way that I find satisifying.  I am saying that the covenant and election overlap but not perfectly.  You can be in the covenant but not elect.  We are agreed about this.<br />
But this is exactly the what Protestant Orthodoxy (Olevianus and Turretin, for instance) meant when it distinguished the essence from the administration of the covenant.</p>
<p>The beauty of Scholasticism was the ability to take into account the &#8220;whole counsel of God&#8221; and thus be able to hedge our bets and make proper distinctions.</p>
<p>So, if you are part of the administration of the covenant you have a true union with Christ&#8217;s ecclesial body (administration) but not His mystical body (essence).</p>
<p>Would you agree with that?</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/09/19/visible-church-again/#comment-1505</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 18:33:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Bill, I don&#039;t see it that way.  Quite the contrary in fact.  I&#039;ll try to write something more substantive on assurance later, but for now, only this incomplete and unsatisfying fragment: The search for INDIVIDUAL assurance in predestination is hopeless, since none of us has access to the decrees.

It seems to me that this search is actually motivated by unbelief, since it seems to be looking for a ground of assurance deeper than the promises of God in the gospel.  God has addressed His promises to me as publicly as can be - and I don&#039;t need anything more.  I just need to trust Him.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill, I don&#8217;t see it that way.  Quite the contrary in fact.  I&#8217;ll try to write something more substantive on assurance later, but for now, only this incomplete and unsatisfying fragment: The search for INDIVIDUAL assurance in predestination is hopeless, since none of us has access to the decrees.</p>
<p>It seems to me that this search is actually motivated by unbelief, since it seems to be looking for a ground of assurance deeper than the promises of God in the gospel.  God has addressed His promises to me as publicly as can be &#8211; and I don&#8217;t need anything more.  I just need to trust Him.</p>
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		<title>By: In Light of the Gospel &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Federal Vision Discussion</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/09/19/visible-church-again/#comment-1504</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[In Light of the Gospel &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Federal Vision Discussion]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 18:25:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/2007/09/19/visible-church-again/#comment-1504</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] can find his post here. Be sure to read the comments because it involves a healthy discussion,Â and follow it through [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] can find his post here. Be sure to read the comments because it involves a healthy discussion,Â and follow it through [...]</p>
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		<title>By: James Jordan</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/09/19/visible-church-again/#comment-1503</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[James Jordan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 18:18:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/2007/09/19/visible-church-again/#comment-1503</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[How can there possibly be any comfort for me in the doctrine of &quot;decretal&quot; election, that God predestinated everything by the act of creating? Unless I have a copy of the decree with my name on it, I can&#039;t know that I&#039;m destined for the New Earth. I cannot think as God thinks, and to try and do so is blasphemy, as we all agree.

What &quot;we&quot; are saying is that in Ephesians 1 and most other places, &quot;election&quot; is God&#039;s placing us into His body by conversion or baptism, whichever comes first so to speak. THAT is an election I can take to the bank, for I can look straight at God&#039;s promises and trust them. There needs to be a good deal of care taken over the use of this word &quot;election,&quot; and I think that has been part of the problem of late.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How can there possibly be any comfort for me in the doctrine of &#8220;decretal&#8221; election, that God predestinated everything by the act of creating? Unless I have a copy of the decree with my name on it, I can&#8217;t know that I&#8217;m destined for the New Earth. I cannot think as God thinks, and to try and do so is blasphemy, as we all agree.</p>
<p>What &#8220;we&#8221; are saying is that in Ephesians 1 and most other places, &#8220;election&#8221; is God&#8217;s placing us into His body by conversion or baptism, whichever comes first so to speak. THAT is an election I can take to the bank, for I can look straight at God&#8217;s promises and trust them. There needs to be a good deal of care taken over the use of this word &#8220;election,&#8221; and I think that has been part of the problem of late.</p>
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		<title>By: W.H. Chellis</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/09/19/visible-church-again/#comment-1502</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[W.H. Chellis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 18:09:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[The problem of course is that predestination that stops short of the Reformed insight that election is meant to give God&#039;s people the comfort of assurance seems lost here.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem of course is that predestination that stops short of the Reformed insight that election is meant to give God&#8217;s people the comfort of assurance seems lost here.</p>
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		<title>By: W.H. Chellis</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/09/19/visible-church-again/#comment-1501</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[W.H. Chellis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 17:12:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[The question is the heart of things.  What is the church.  Is &quot;body of Christ&quot; a metaphor or an organic incarnational reality?

I will let the Doctors of the Church give instruction.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The question is the heart of things.  What is the church.  Is &#8220;body of Christ&#8221; a metaphor or an organic incarnational reality?</p>
<p>I will let the Doctors of the Church give instruction.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/09/19/visible-church-again/#comment-1500</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:59:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/2007/09/19/visible-church-again/#comment-1500</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To Bill&#039;s questions:

1) Yes.

2) Here&#039;s the nub of the discussion, I think.  If &quot;saving efficacy&quot; means &quot;efficacious to eternal life,&quot; then the answer is No.  Not everyone who is baptized into union with Christ in His body is eternally saved.  If you&#039;re asking whether baptized reprobates (or at least some of them) participate (for a time, in some way) in the benefits of Christ&#039;s saving work in some lesser way, the answer is Yes. To go no further: The church itself is a product of Jesus&#039; death and resurrection, and so membership in the church itself involves participation in a benefit of Christ&#039;s saving work.

To turn the question back to you: Does &quot;legal and covenantal&quot; include some sort of personal union with Christ?  Or is it a &quot;merely external&quot; link?  Are you meaning to contrast &quot;legal&quot; to &quot;organic&quot; or something similar?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Bill&#8217;s questions:</p>
<p>1) Yes.</p>
<p>2) Here&#8217;s the nub of the discussion, I think.  If &#8220;saving efficacy&#8221; means &#8220;efficacious to eternal life,&#8221; then the answer is No.  Not everyone who is baptized into union with Christ in His body is eternally saved.  If you&#8217;re asking whether baptized reprobates (or at least some of them) participate (for a time, in some way) in the benefits of Christ&#8217;s saving work in some lesser way, the answer is Yes. To go no further: The church itself is a product of Jesus&#8217; death and resurrection, and so membership in the church itself involves participation in a benefit of Christ&#8217;s saving work.</p>
<p>To turn the question back to you: Does &#8220;legal and covenantal&#8221; include some sort of personal union with Christ?  Or is it a &#8220;merely external&#8221; link?  Are you meaning to contrast &#8220;legal&#8221; to &#8220;organic&#8221; or something similar?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: W.H. Chellis</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/09/19/visible-church-again/#comment-1499</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[W.H. Chellis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:41:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[But to ask a couple of question of Peter:

1) Do you recognize a that covenant and election to perseverance (to invoke Augustine) are not completely overlapping? (That is to say that some are elect to eternal life and in the covenant and some are destined to fall away but in the covenant.)

2) Would you say that your formula of sacramental union with Christ is legal and covenantal but not necessarily partaking of saving efficacy?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But to ask a couple of question of Peter:</p>
<p>1) Do you recognize a that covenant and election to perseverance (to invoke Augustine) are not completely overlapping? (That is to say that some are elect to eternal life and in the covenant and some are destined to fall away but in the covenant.)</p>
<p>2) Would you say that your formula of sacramental union with Christ is legal and covenantal but not necessarily partaking of saving efficacy?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: W.H. Chellis</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/09/19/visible-church-again/#comment-1498</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[W.H. Chellis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:38:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[I am unsure what the purity of the church has to do with sacramental efficacy?  Only inclusion in the visible church should matter (without regard to how pure of an expression, right?)

For instance, our congregation would never rebaptize a former Roman Catholic or anyone else from a Trinitarian background.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am unsure what the purity of the church has to do with sacramental efficacy?  Only inclusion in the visible church should matter (without regard to how pure of an expression, right?)</p>
<p>For instance, our congregation would never rebaptize a former Roman Catholic or anyone else from a Trinitarian background.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/09/19/visible-church-again/#comment-1497</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:32:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/2007/09/19/visible-church-again/#comment-1497</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Indulge my abstractitude.  Let&#039;s put aside the question of pure/impure, and consider only a &quot;more pure&quot; church.  Does my argument about baptismal efficacy work in that case?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indulge my abstractitude.  Let&#8217;s put aside the question of pure/impure, and consider only a &#8220;more pure&#8221; church.  Does my argument about baptismal efficacy work in that case?</p>
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