Frame’s Creative Children
The more I read here, the more I’m reminded of John Frame’s case for biblicism and critique of traditionalism. The way FV stands in relation to the Reformed tradtiion calls to mind Frame’s defense of biblicisim, which included the following paragraphs:
One might also raise questions concerning the relative absence at Westminster (again, I think mainly of the early ’60s when I was a student) of a confessional or traditional focus. I must be careful here in my formulation. But I felt as a student that we were being stimulated to originality more than we were being indoctrinated into a tradition. That may be a surprising comment, and I must immediately qualify it. All professors subscribed ex animo to the Westminster Confession and Catechisms, and the subscription formula was more detailed and forceful than most ordination vows in Presbyterian denominations. Our professors loved the great teachers of past ages: Augustine, Luther, Calvin, and the many others since their time. But Westminster was independent of denominational control, and students came from many denominational backgrounds, Reformed and non-Reformed. Students were not expected to subscribe to Reformed doctrine in order to matriculate or to graduate. There was, in my experience, an atmosphere of openness. We were encouraged to ask hard questions, and our professors generally sympathized with the questions, if not with our answers.
During my student years, I was never asked to read any of the Reformed confessions, or Calvin’s Institutes, except in small bits. I never read any official standards of church government or discipline, not to mention Robert’s Rules of Order. We used Hodge and Berkhof in our systematics classes, but for the most part we were graded not on our reading but on our knowledge of Murray’s lectures. After graduation I became ordained in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, and I confess I was rather surprised at the seriousness with which my fellow ministers took the Confessional Standards and Presbyterian traditions. Eventually I became more like my fellow Orthodox Presbyterian (and later Presbyterian Church in America) elders, but not without some nostalgia for the openness of theological discussion during my seminary years.
It is legitimate to criticize this openness in some respects. In my own theology courses, I always assign relevant portions of the confessions, and I try to make sure that every student understands the traditional formulations, even when I seek to improve upon them. Surely one important function of a seminary is to perpetuate and recommend the confessional traditions. Students seeking to be ordained in Reformed churches must understand fully what they are being asked to subscribe to. The Westminster of the early 1960s did not do a thorough enough job in that aspect of its teaching; I do believe it has improved since that time.
But as an academic theological community, seeking to encourage students how to do careful and hard thinking about theological issues, Westminster of the early 1960s was superb. I was not entirely ready for the Orthodox Presbyterian Church after study at Yale. Some students, I think, responded to this combination of freedom and orthodoxy in the wrong way: by taking the original insights of, say, Van Til, Kline, or Adams and trying to make them tests of orthodoxy. [xx] But that was, I think, more the fault of the students than of the professors. Clearly, at any rate, Westminster’s particular understanding of sola Scriptura did not lead to a stagnant traditionalism, but to a flourishing of original and impressive theological thought. [end of quote]
I wonder what the FV folks make of this analysis. I sense that the Reformed tradition rests on them the way it lights on Frame, and that the talk of tradition is really on the way to stagnation.
James Jordan
September 22nd, 2007 at 12:32 pm
I completely agree with Frame’s comments. Whole-heartedly.
P. Andrew Sandlin
September 22nd, 2007 at 12:39 pm
John is a good friend, and while I can’t speak for the FV men, let me suggest that the main reason John is right is that he articulates a Biblical [!] view of tradition here. After all, Jesus was an operational exponent of sola scriptura if there ever was one — consistently drawing sharp distinctions between the received tradition and the OT. Paul followed the Lord in this emphasis. This emphais is so clear in the NT that it is hard to miss.
Contra Rome and the East, we Protestants, no matter how we may appreciate tradition, do not vest it with any revelational authority. It is a product, not a source, of theology — and a flawed product at that.
Tradition is inescapable, of course. And I’m usually happy with the general tragectory of the WCF (e.g.). But, after all, what is a confession but a systematic theology that happens to have gained ecclesial sanction? It is man-made, historically conditioned, subject to all the historical and social factors that shape all we think and do.
I don’t hold the anabaptist paradigm that we need to reinvent the tradition in every generation. I do hold the Protestant paradigm that we need to test the tradition by Scripture in every generation.
And Frame, good Biblicist that he is, would agree.
JMeyers
September 22nd, 2007 at 1:50 pm
Frame is right on, brother. I thought we weren’t supposed to refer to outside material this first week. But since you brought it up, Frame’s essays ought to read by everyone interested in this debate. They are Traditionalism and In Defense of Something Close to Biblicism:Reflections on Sola Scriptura and History in Theological Method.
D Hart
September 22nd, 2007 at 1:52 pm
Mr. Sandlin, and what is John Frame’s biblicism except a man-made, historically conditioned perspective that has NOT gained ecclesial sanction. If it did we would not have a binding creed. And if the creed binds, you can’t be a biblicist.
Why are FVers, with all of their interaction with modern and post-modern thought, unaware of the hermeneutical problem? It’s as if Frame, Vos, or Leithart do not suffer from the historical/cultural limitations from which the WCF suffers. And it is also as if you can have the Bible free from interpretation. WG Shedd put the matter very well:
Of course Scripture is the only infallible rule of faith. But this particular way of appealing to Scripture is specious and fallacious. In the first place, it assumes that Calvinism is not Scriptural, an assumption which the Presbyterian Church has never granted. . . . Secondly, this kind of appeal to Scripture is only an appeal to Scripture as the reviser understands it. “Scripture” properly means the interpretation of Scripture; that is, the contents of Scripture as reached by human investigation and exegesis. Creeds, like commentaries, are Scripture studied and explained, and not the mere abstract and unexplained book as it lies on the counter of the Bible House. The infallible Word of God is expounded by the fallible mind of man, and hence the variety of expositions embodied in the denominational creeds. But every interpreter claims to have understood the Scriptures correctly, and, consequently, claims that his creed is Scriptural, and if so, that it is the infallible truth of God. The Arminian appeals to the Articles of Wesley as the rule of faith, because he believes them to be the true explanation of the inspired Bible. . . . The Calvinist appeals to the creeds of Heidelberg, Dort, and Westminster as the rule of faith, because he regards them as the accurate exegesis of the revealed Word of God. By the ‘Bible’ these parties, as well as all others who appeal to the Bible, mean their understanding of the Bible. There is no such thing as that abstract Scripture to which the revisionist of whom we are speaking appeals; that is, Scripture apart from any and all interpretation of it. When, therefore, the advocate of revision demands that the Westminster Confession be “conformed to Scripture”, he means conformation to Scripture as he and those like him read and explain it. It is impossible to make abstract Scripture the rule of faith for either an individual or a denomination. No Christian body has ever subscribed to the Bible merely as a printed book. A person who should write his name on the blank leaf of the Bible and say that his doctrinal belief was between the covers, would convey no definite information as to his creed.
If all interpretations suffer from this problem that Shedd recognizes, then who is to decide which interpretation is right? I thought FV would answer “the church.” Instead, their answer is “the Bible.” Hello American, evangelical, individualistic Bible-onlyism.
Peter
September 22nd, 2007 at 1:57 pm
Um. Isn’t “the Bible” the answer to the question that the Confession gives? WCF 1.10.
In what Reformed Confession is “the church” the answer to that question?
JMeyers
September 22nd, 2007 at 2:14 pm
Dr. Hart: You said: “If all interpretations suffer from this problem that Shedd recognizes, then who is to decide which interpretation is right? I thought FV would answer “the church.†Instead, their answer is “the Bible.†Hello American, evangelical, individualistic Bible-onlyism.”
But our confessional documents don’t make themselves arbiters of biblical interpretations. They tell us to go to the Bible itself and search for answers.
WCF 1.8. The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which, at the time of the writing of it, was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and, by his singular care and providence, kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentical; so as, in all controversies of religion, the church is finally to appeal unto them.
What we have here with the FV debate is a good old-fashioned “controversy of religion.” How should the controversy be decided? By an appeal to creeds, confessions, catechisms, or the “Reformed tradition.” No. The OT in Hebrew and the NT in Greek.
WCF 1.9. The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself: and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly.
The FV men are seeking to understand the true and full sense of Paul’s teaching on justification by searching and comparing Scripture with Scripture. But these days it seems that the real infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Westminster tradition or Reformed tradition in general. This is a remarkable and dangerous turn for Reformed churches. Not one of the study committees established these past few years dealt with the biblical arguments advanced by FV men.
WCF 1. 10. The supreme judge by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.
You asked “then who is to decide which interpretation is right?” The answer can be “no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.” If that sounds too Evangelical, then I don’t know what to say. It’s our tradition warning us against being traditionalists! Not everything that American evangelical Bible-believing Christians say is wrong just because they say it.
D Hart
September 22nd, 2007 at 2:20 pm
Peter, how exactly does the Bible “decide”? Is it a soft-ware program into which we pose our questions? You have once again dodged the question of who interprets and who determines which interpretations are fitting.
Actually, the WCF says more than 1.10. 31.2 says:
It belongeth to synods and councils, ministerially to determine controversies of faith, and cases of conscience; to set down rules and directions for the better ordering of the public worship of God, and government of his church; to receive complaints in cases of maladministration, and authoritatively to determine the same: which decrees and determinations, if consonant to the Word of God, are to be received with reverence and submission; not only for their agreement with the Word, but also for the power whereby they are made, as being an ordinance of God appointed thereunto in his Word.
Notice, it says that the church’s decisions are to received with reverence and submission not on if they agree with the Word, but as being an ordinance of God (which happens to go along with 20.4 about the real power of the church.
Peter
September 22nd, 2007 at 2:26 pm
You misread the quotation.
The decrees and determinations are to be “received with reverence and submission” “IF consonant to the Word of God.” NOT “whether or not they are consonant with the word.”
The following clause says that the authority and dignity of decrees that are CONSISTENT WITH THE WORD OF GOD are to be received NOT ONLY BECAUSE they are consistent with the Word, but also because of the power that the church possess. That clause assumes the previous clause, and assumes that the decrees in question have “agreement with the Word.”
Nowhere does this indicate that we should receive UNBIBLICAL decrees with reverence. It says the opposite.
And this only goes to illustrate that the Confession is as subject to varying interpretations as Scripture is!
D Hart
September 22nd, 2007 at 2:27 pm
JMyers: My reply to Peter applies equally to you. Why do you think that simply saying the Bible settles it, a la Billy Sunday, settles it? Doesn’t the Bible have to be interpreted by somebody? And aren’t some somebodies more authoritative than others? And while I’m at it, what are the bodies of Presbyterian denominations like the OPC and the PCA, chopped liver? Where is the high view of the church that I’ve heard so much about as the FV’s means for addressing the problems of Billy Sunday?
P. Andrew Sandlin
September 22nd, 2007 at 2:30 pm
Daryl,
I suspect I affirm historicity (Ebeling) more extensively than you, so you don’t need to convince me of it. Nobody here holds that we encounter the Bible in an unconditioned way, nobody holds to a hermeneutic of the dreaded common sense realism. That’s just not the issue.
The issue is to what extent we privilege a *particular* historically conditioned understanding of the Bible. The hermeneutic spiral works like this: we historically conditioned folk (self-consciously historically conditioned) read the Bible and devise fallible interpretations. We know they are revisable (and I don’t know of any FV’er who claims that group has got it all together). We constantly go back to the Bible to test our historically conditioned understanding, not with the hopes that we can ever escape that conditioning, but with the hopes that over time we can create a little more accurate paradigm (Kuhn). That’s the way it works — has always worked. This is all pretty fundamental.
Now, the problem you have, as I see it, is that you want to privilege a *particular* historically conditioned interpretation as impervious to revision. I’m not sure how this is *materially* different from the Eastern church’s privileging the Fathers. And it doesn’t seem to comport well with sola scriptura, which implies a view of tradition, a hermeneutic, not just of authority. Please see Gerhard Ebeling on this. He’s masterful.
Thank God for the Reformation. Thank God for the WCF framers. But why stop with them?
Ironically, if they’d embraced the traditionalism you seem to be embracing, they never would have devised the confessions you now intractably defend. They were able to shape a tradition precisely because they broke with (or at least revised) a tradition.
Anti-traditionalism is a critical tenet of the Reformed tradition.
Peter
September 22nd, 2007 at 2:30 pm
To your original question: How does the Bible decide?
First, does WCF 1.10 dodge the question?
Second, OF COURSE, a decision in a controversy is made by PEOPLE who are studying the Bible. The point is, that they are studying the BIBLE for answers, not simply appealing to earlier Confessional statements, trusting that the Spirit is not incapable of speaking in Scripture.
James Jordan
September 22nd, 2007 at 3:03 pm
Over and over some of the “FV” people in this debate have asked for interaction with their exegesis. None has been forthcoming. Why is that?
Instead we get endless discussions about tradition, which seem to imply that it is not possible for a community of people within the larger tradition of the church to read and understand the Bible. I get the impression that the Bible is a noumenon. Why is that?
Several people have provided lists of areas where the “FV” offers to fix ostensible problems in the “Reformed” world, which is what this discussion was set up to discuss. But at no point has anyone taken up anything in these lists. Why is that?
I guess I’m asking what’s the purpose of this discussion.
JMeyers
September 22nd, 2007 at 3:05 pm
Dr. Hart: The hermeneutical conundrum that you think the FV men are strapped with—PEOPLE have to interpret the Bible—cannot be escaped by an appeal to Reformed tradition or to our Confessional documents. Don’t people have to interpret these documents and deliverances? They are not self-interpreting texts, are they?
Second: My relationship to the OPC church and especially the PCA is not an all-or-nothing proposition. If, for example, I object to and disagree with what a single GA did with reference to a certain study committee report, that does not mean I believe the PCA is “chopped liver.” If I were to criticize the OPC for the conclusions of it’s study committee, it would be illogical and irresponsible to conclude that I believe them to be a synagogue of Satan. Being in submission to my brothers does not mean that I march lock-step with them on every particular.
D Hart
September 22nd, 2007 at 4:42 pm
Andrew, when did I ever say that the Reformed tradition is impervious to revision? Why is it that biblicists always hear defense of tradition as if the tradition is without error? I believe the WCF is one piece of the Reformed tradition, historically speaking. It is part of a larger development. But at the same time, the OPC’s confession of faith is binding on me and that it is because it is the teaching of the Bible. A part of the body of Christ has affirmed it as the teaching of the Bible. No church has done this with Frame, Hart, or Leithart. And if Frame, Hart or Leithart teach contrary to their communion’s teaching, they get in trouble. That’s the way churches work.
And we do have a way of revising or improving the tradition. It is to try to get the church to embrace it as part of the consensus.
Peter, when did I say the church only decides on the basis of earlier confessional statements? Churches may draw on a variety of things to settle a controversy. Protestant churches better draw upon Scripture in their resolution but again the human vs. divine rhetoric here is astounding. A creed is not merely man-made if it is written by men who have been called by God and led by the Spirit and are acting in their capacity as a council or synod of the church. I find the “man-made” appeal to be so incredibly modernist and anti-ecclesial.
But when this body of men comes to Scripture, do you really expect them to approach the Bible neutrally, as if they have no biases or loyalty to the tradition or church they inhabit? That seems to be the assumption in the biblicist appeal, that you can all of a sudden stand back from scripture and approach it afresh. I wouldn’t expect a judge in the U.S. to approach a case starting from the French law. But a church in which its officers have subscribe the Westminster Standards are somehow to interpet Scripture in a controversy as if the Westmisnter Standards weren’t normative?
James Jordan
September 22nd, 2007 at 6:05 pm
Is it possible to agree that we who are called FV do in fact respect Confession and tradition? We say we do. We show repeatedly that our ideas have provenance in the tradition. I get the impression that what is being required us of is that we say “shibboleth” the right way. That’s not going to happen. So can we move past this issue?
Jordan Mark Siverd
September 22nd, 2007 at 6:51 pm
ONCE AGAIN, the analogy of the Westminster Standards to the U.S. Constitution is very unhelpful. There is a sense in which the standards are normative for church courts, but that is very different from the normative nature of the U.S. Constitution for American courts of law. Your statement completely overlooks the fact that the standards are expressly subordinate authorities.
Besides, a judge in the U.S. might have a good reason to approach a case by looking to French law, e.g., if that law is an interpretation of an international treaty which both the United States and France have adopted or a private contract governed by French law.
I will try to address the subordinate normativity of the standards for church courts a little more thoroughly in a post on my blog, if anyone is interested.
D Hart
September 22nd, 2007 at 8:49 pm
Peter, I submit however humbly that I did not misread WCF 31.2. It says the decrees are to be received with reverence and submission “if consonant with the word of God.” A biblicist would stop there. Sure, I’ll believe the church as long as she teaches what the Bible teaches. But the paragraph goes on to say that we receive these decrees and determiniations, “not only for their agreement with the word, but also for the power whereby they are made, as being an ordinance of God appointed thereunto in his Word.” This clause not only assumes that churches should teach what the Bible teaches, but it also assumes the church has power which itself is an ordinance of God. In which case, you disagree with the church you do so at some peril (also stated in WCF 20.4). How could the Divines have said otherwise. Parilament would have cut their heads off if they told the English only to believe and submit to the church when they thought the church’s views accorded with their own reading of the Bible.
This may not mean that we receive UNBIBLICAL teaching with reverence and submission, but it does suggest that we give an ordinance of God the benefit of the doubt. And if we do disagree, we do so knowledgeably, humbly, and willing to be corrected.
Again, I ask where’s the high ecclesiology?
D Hart
September 22nd, 2007 at 8:54 pm
P. Andrew, guilty as charged. I do privilege a certain reading historically situated reading of the Bible. I’m not alone in this. Every Protestant who has subscribed a creed is equally guilty. It is what makes a minister a Methodist, a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or a Lutheran.
But where I privilege a church’s reading of the Bible, you privilege a lone individual’s reading, possibly yours, possibly Frame’s, possibly Sheperd’s. Presbyterianism is not a democracy, but if it were the reading I privilege would get more votes (believing for the moment in the democracy of the dead) than yours. But as a churchman, I’m always prone to take a church’s reading (Reformed or no) more seriously than an individual minister’s.
D Hart
September 22nd, 2007 at 9:07 pm
JMyers, sorry that you need to work overtime on interpreting documents, but that comes with the territory of subscribing a creed. When you were ordained you likely affirmed a vow that you received and adopted the Standards as the system of doctrine taught in the Bible. In which case, you were subscribing an interpretation of the Bible. At that point, it seems only fair if not intellectually honest for one laboring in this situation to check his interpretation of the Bible against the system that he has received and adopted. I didn’t think, after all, that ordinations vows were simply a hurdle you needed to clear in order to have freedom to interpret the Bible however you want.
This relates to Mr. Sivard’s point about the Standards as subordinate standards. They may differ from the constitution, though Staussians would say that the Constitution is subordinate to the Declaration. So subordinateness goes around. Even if the Standards are as subordinate as you make them, are they not superior to your or my reading of Scripture? Again, I see the Bible floating away on biblicist wings as if it exists out there uninterpreted, only to be lassooed by the most brilliant interpreter. Who am I after all, to suggest my reading of the Bible is better than the collective wisdom of my communion? And I’d need to be off my meds to think that my interpretation was superior to the Reformed church fathers.
James Jordan
September 23rd, 2007 at 9:15 am
Darryl, why do you keep insisting that FV people are ignoring the Reformed tradition, that we don’t check our views with that tradition? We don’t ignore it and we have always checked our views. Our view are far more in conformity with that tradition than what passes for Calvinism in the PCA and OPC today for the most part. And we did not come to these views and then go back and check the tradition. We read Bible and tradition together to come to our views. Here’s an example, from something I wrote elsewhere:
BOQ: Amillennialism is the default position in the Reformed and Presbyterian Churches today. As we have seen above, it was not always so. When Calvin did theology, his fundamental concern was with social order and the restoration of social order: the order between the triune God and human society, between people and people, etc. (See Benjamin Charles Milner, Jr., Calvin’s Doctrine of the Church. Studies in the History of Christian Thought 5 [Leiden: Brill, 1970].) Nor is this concern with order unique to Calvin’s overall theological approach. It was a characteristic of all Renaissance-period thinkers, and indeed had been how theology was done from the time of Irenaeus forward, including Eusebius, Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, and all the Reformers. All were concerned with Jesus Christ’s restoration of order to all of life. The notion that Jesus came only to cherry-pick a few individuals out of the world and put them in a basket, leaving the rest of the world to flames, would have appalled them.
Doing theology in a context of social thought and with a concern for social order did not stop with the Reformation. The men at the Westminster Assembly were concerned with the same matters. After all, they met during the English Civil War, a time when they were trying to reorder all of society. Samuel Rutherford’s political treatise Lex, Rex; or The Law and the Ruler begins in its opening paragraph by referring to a whole list of Roman Catholic writers who were also wrestling with the same issues. I mention this because one objection to “Federal Vision†writers is that they dare to read Catholic, Lutheran, and Orthodox theologians and thinkers! Anyway, one need only read the literature of the Presbyterians and Puritans in England and New England to realize that they did theology in a context of postmillennial expectations and of concern with society. EOQ
Now, much can be said about the difficulties encountered with transferring a medieval notion of social order into the Americas, and how the Covenanters tried to preserve the Reformation in this area while others made adjustments. But regardless of that, there is a whole-life societal-political context in which theology is done, and that is the Reformed context, and it is the FV context. The Reformed faith is not the ordo salutis.
To be sure, examining the Reformed tradition we FVers also see errors that we wish to leave behind: Keeping children from the table; lack of enthusiastic dancelike hymnody and psalmody (i.e., returning to the Reformers in this area); lack of music instruments (returning to David); lack of festivals. The larger area we see is that intellectualistic tendency to see man as homo sapiens rather than homo adorans, and seeing the production of an “educated” clergy as more important than producing a clergy capable of playing cymbals and trumpets and leading in the kind of worship God likes. Which is why, we believe, God has moved most of His people into churches that, however poorly in execution, do worship Him with joy and vigor. But in fact, I myself wrote an entire book on this subject, interacting with Girardeau and others of the minimalist tradition. We have not ignored tradition. We have interacted with it constantly and at every point.
So, I would appreciate it if you’d get off this “FV does not respect Reformed tradition” dime, because it’s beginning to stop being a misunderstanding and to start being an insult.
D Hart
September 23rd, 2007 at 1:15 pm
James: One reason why some like myself think FV is not interested in the Reformed tradition is statements like this: “. . . on excitement about being Reformed: I’m not excited about it at all. I think excitement about being Reformed is grossly sectarian. Jesus did not die to make me Reformed, and going around tooting a Reformed horn compromises the gospel, in my opinion. My theological understanding is thoroughly Reformed; within that broad stream. But I’m not of Paul, Apollos, or Reformed. And if that’s part of what’s offensive about the FV, so be it.
Beyond this, as one FVer, speaking at this point for some of “us” but not all of “us,” I’m very happy to let the Westminster Standards out of my warm living fingers if we could come up with something that is not shot through with spatial analogies and terminist nominalism. This was fine stuff for that time, but it definitely reflects its time and the limits of that time, and we know now that there are better ways to say some of these things, and we know the dangers of spatial thinking. Four hundred years have gone by, and for the health of the church (our pastoral concern) I believe the fruits of that 400-year conversation should be integrated into what we set forth as central.”
Another might be that Doug Wilson thinks he needs to translate for you.
BTW, on one is objecting to FV reading non-Reformed authors. The objection is that FV proponents don’t see the differences between Reformed and non-Reformed authors, and so are not more careful about they way they draw upon or cite other traditions. Can you say N. T. Wright? Sure you can.
P. Andrew Sandlin
September 23rd, 2007 at 5:12 pm
Darryl, as the consumate eclectic more guilty than others here of citing folks all over the theological map, I’m not quite sure what alternative you’re offering in the final paragrah of the post above.
Why should I be more “careful” in citing the non-Reformed Pieper than the Reformed Moltmann? Is there the presumption that Reformed authors are “safer” *across the board *than non-Reformed authors? Should I be more “careful” with Luther’s support of infant baptism or the Reformed Barth’s opposition to it?
If the Covennat of Works as generally understod in the 20th century is not Biblical, should be more “careful” of Dan Fuller’s opposition to it or the Reformed Kline’s support for it?
I’m am willing to be corrected here, but it seems to me you vest the Reformed tradition *as such* with a mystical superiority, trumping all else in the interpretation of the Bible. Can we not respect that tradition while being open to valuable insights from other traditions?
I know of many Lutherans and not a few Calvinians who see the WCF as a hermeneutical grid through which they read the Bible. Is this how the Holy Spirit intended us to read the Bible? May we not draw on numerous traditions, working toward the most accurate grasp of the text and of its theology irrespective of traditinary labels?
D Hart
September 23rd, 2007 at 9:25 pm
P. Andrew, sure you can. It’s a free country. But if you’re going to draw on numerous traditions then you’re not going to have a tradition. Sorry, but those are the rules, not according to the WCF, but according to the way any number of historians, philosophers and sociologists have defined tradition. Sorry if that’s not biblical.
BTW, you guys really have to get over your hang up with the Covenant of Works and the Klineans. It’s not just the 20th century, but a lot of people before M. Kline.
P. Andrew Sandlin
September 24th, 2007 at 12:34 am
Darryl writes:
“But if you’re going to draw on numerous traditions then you’re not going to have a tradition.”
This, I believe, is false. Is not Christianity itself a tradtition? I merely suggested that we mine all the traditions within the Christian tradition.
I agree with you that Kline’s CoW construction has wide historical precedent. In my view, the whole thing reeks of medieval notions of merit and needs to be scrapped.