<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Re-Paganizing the Church</title>
	<atom:link href="http://deregnochristi.org/2007/10/03/re-paganizing-the-church/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/10/03/re-paganizing-the-church/</link>
	<description>The Reign of Christ</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:30:23 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2</generator>
		<item>
		<title>By: rej</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/10/03/re-paganizing-the-church/#comment-2346</link>
		<dc:creator>rej</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:49:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/2007/10/03/re-paganizing-the-church/#comment-2346</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;"This is connected to what I have been arguing about being able, at least occasionally, to admit that the narratives of tradition and church history are to an extent myths that legitimize what I would call the â€œmojoâ€ â€¦ or the magic â€¦ the authority of the church."&lt;/i&gt;

You are basically arguing that it is good to be a putz pagan Catholic and follow whatever the priests say because supposedly like Gandolf in a fiction novel they have magical powers.  I don't see how you can get away with calling yourself Reformed in any sense of the word.  What the church needs is not a re-paganization (one of the most blasphemous ideas I've ever heard) but a Restoration.  That is, a true application of Sola Scriptura, to abandon church tradition COMPLETELY and follow Scripture alone.  The reason that Protestantism limps around with one foot in the grave and has since the very beginning is that it never was willing to actually APPLY Sola Scriptura.  Until it does that, it is twice dead, plucked up by the roots.  Thank God for the church of Christ which follows Sola Scriptura.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;This is connected to what I have been arguing about being able, at least occasionally, to admit that the narratives of tradition and church history are to an extent myths that legitimize what I would call the â€œmojoâ€ â€¦ or the magic â€¦ the authority of the church.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>You are basically arguing that it is good to be a putz pagan Catholic and follow whatever the priests say because supposedly like Gandolf in a fiction novel they have magical powers.  I don&#8217;t see how you can get away with calling yourself Reformed in any sense of the word.  What the church needs is not a re-paganization (one of the most blasphemous ideas I&#8217;ve ever heard) but a Restoration.  That is, a true application of Sola Scriptura, to abandon church tradition COMPLETELY and follow Scripture alone.  The reason that Protestantism limps around with one foot in the grave and has since the very beginning is that it never was willing to actually APPLY Sola Scriptura.  Until it does that, it is twice dead, plucked up by the roots.  Thank God for the church of Christ which follows Sola Scriptura.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Caleb Stegall</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/10/03/re-paganizing-the-church/#comment-2295</link>
		<dc:creator>Caleb Stegall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 14:43:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/2007/10/03/re-paganizing-the-church/#comment-2295</guid>
		<description>Darryl, I, following EV, don't accept the "rivalry" between Jerusalem and Athens.  EV: "Christianity is not an alternative to philosophy, it is philosophy itself in its state of perfection; the history of the Logos comes to its fulfillment through the incarnation of the Word in Christ."

I will give you the full context of the Voegelin quote above.  Sorry, you asked for it.

Voegelin is riffing off of the opening chapter of the 1966 Dutch Catechism which reads: "This book begins by asking what is the meaning of the fact that we exist.  This does not mean that we begin by taking up a non-Christian attitude.  It simply means that we, too, as Christians, are men with enquiring minds.  We must always be ready and able to explain how our faith is the answer to the question of our existence."

To this, Voegelin writes:

[BOQ]

The passage, though wanting in polish, is philosophically very much to the point.  Its well-intentioned clumsiness sheds a flood of light on the difficulties in which the churches find themselves today.  Note above all the difficulty the church has with its own believers who want to be Christians at the price of their humanity.  Justin started as an inquiring mind and let his search, after it had tried the philosophical schools of the time, come to rest in the truth of the gospel.  Today, the situation is reversed.  The believers are at rest in an uninquiring state of faith; their intellectual metabolism must be stirred by the reminder that man is supposed to be a questioner, that a believer who is unable to explain how his faith is an answer to the enigma of existence may be a â€œgood Christianâ€ but is a questionable man.  And we may supplement the reminder by gently recalling that neither Jesus nor his fellowmen to whom he spoke his word did yet know that they were Christiansâ€”the gospel held out its promise, not to Christians, but to the poor in spirit, that is, to minds inquiring, even though on a culturally less sophisticated level than Justinâ€™s.  Behind the passage there lurks the conflict, not between gospel and philosophy, but rather between the gospel and its uninquiring possession as doctrine.  The authors of the Catechism do not take this conflict lightly; they anticipate resistance to their attempt at finding the common humanity of men in their being the questioners about the meaning of existence; and they protect themselves against all too ready misunderstands by assuring the reader they do not mean to â€œtake up a non-Christian attitude.â€  Assuming them to have carefully weighted every sentence they wrote, this defensive clause reveals an environment where it is not customary to ask questions, where the character of the gospel as an answer has been so badly obscured by is hardening into self-contained doctrine that the raising of the question to which it is meant as an answer can be suspect as a â€œnon-Christian attitude.â€  If that, however, is the situation, the authors have good reason to be worried indeed.  For the gospel as a doctrine which you can take and be saved, or leave and be condemned, is a dead letter; it will encounter indifference, if not contempt, among inquiring minds outside the church, as well as the restlessness of the believer inside who is un-Christian enough to be man the questioner.  The Chatechismâ€™s intent to restore the inquiring mind to the position that is his due, is a sensible first step toward regaining for the gospel the reality it has lost through the doctrinal hardening.  Moreover, however hesitant and tentative it may prove in the execution, the attempt is a first step toward regaining the life of reason represented by philosophy.  Both Platoâ€™s eroticism of the search (zetesis) and Aristotleâ€™s intellectually more aggressive aporein recognize in â€œman the questionerâ€ the man moved by God to ask the questions that will lead him toward the cause (arche) of being.  The search itself is the evidence of existential unrest; in the act of questioning, manâ€™s experience of his tension (tasis) towards the divine ground breaks forth in the word of inquiry as a prayer for the Word of the answer.  Question and answer are intimately related one toward the other; the search moves in the metaxy, as Plato has called it, in the In-Between of poverty and wealth, of human and divine; the question is knowing, but its knowledge is yet the trembling of a question that may reach the true answer or miss it.  This luminous search in which the finding of the true answer depends on asking the true question, and the asking of the true question on the spiritual apprehension of the true answer, is the life of reason.  The philosopher can only be delighted by the Catechismâ€™s admonition to make â€œfaithâ€ accountable in terms of an answer to the questions about the meaning of existence.  Question and answer are held together, and related to one another, by the event of the search.  Man, however, though he is truly the questioner, can also deform his humanity by refusing to ask the questions, or by loading them with premises devised to make the search impossible.  The gospel, to be heard, requires ears that can hear; philosophy is not the life of reason if the questionerâ€™s reason is depraved (Rom. 1:28).  The answer will not help the man who has lost the question; and the predicament of the present age is characterized by the loss of the question rather than of the answer, as the authors of the Catechism have seen rightly.  It will be necessary, therefore, to recover the question to which, in Hellenistic-Roman culture, the philosopher could understand the gospel as the answer.  Since the question concerns the humanity of man, it is the same today as it ever has been in the past, but today it is so badly distorted through the Western deculturation process that it must, first, be disentangled from the intellectually disordered language in which we indiscriminately speak of the meaning of life, or the meaning of existence, or the fact of existence which has no meaning, or the meaning which must be given to the fact of existence, and so forth, as if life were a given and meaning a property it has or does not have.  Well, existence is not a fact.  If anything, existence is a nonfact of a disturbing movement in the In-between of ignorance and knowledge, of time and timelessness, of imperfection and perfection, of hope and fulfillment, and ultimately of life and death.  From the experience of this movement, from the anxiety of losing the right direction in this In-Between of darkness and light, arises the inquiry concerning the meaning of life.  But it does arise only because life is experienced as manâ€™s participation in a movement with a direction to be found or missed; if manâ€™s existence were not a movement but a fact, it not only would have no meaning but the question of meaning could not even arise.

[EOQ]

Hope that helps folks understand EV better and also better understand where Iâ€™m coming from in discussions like these.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Darryl, I, following EV, don&#8217;t accept the &#8220;rivalry&#8221; between Jerusalem and Athens.  EV: &#8220;Christianity is not an alternative to philosophy, it is philosophy itself in its state of perfection; the history of the Logos comes to its fulfillment through the incarnation of the Word in Christ.&#8221;</p>
<p>I will give you the full context of the Voegelin quote above.  Sorry, you asked for it.</p>
<p>Voegelin is riffing off of the opening chapter of the 1966 Dutch Catechism which reads: &#8220;This book begins by asking what is the meaning of the fact that we exist.  This does not mean that we begin by taking up a non-Christian attitude.  It simply means that we, too, as Christians, are men with enquiring minds.  We must always be ready and able to explain how our faith is the answer to the question of our existence.&#8221;</p>
<p>To this, Voegelin writes:</p>
<p>[BOQ]</p>
<p>The passage, though wanting in polish, is philosophically very much to the point.  Its well-intentioned clumsiness sheds a flood of light on the difficulties in which the churches find themselves today.  Note above all the difficulty the church has with its own believers who want to be Christians at the price of their humanity.  Justin started as an inquiring mind and let his search, after it had tried the philosophical schools of the time, come to rest in the truth of the gospel.  Today, the situation is reversed.  The believers are at rest in an uninquiring state of faith; their intellectual metabolism must be stirred by the reminder that man is supposed to be a questioner, that a believer who is unable to explain how his faith is an answer to the enigma of existence may be a â€œgood Christianâ€ but is a questionable man.  And we may supplement the reminder by gently recalling that neither Jesus nor his fellowmen to whom he spoke his word did yet know that they were Christiansâ€”the gospel held out its promise, not to Christians, but to the poor in spirit, that is, to minds inquiring, even though on a culturally less sophisticated level than Justinâ€™s.  Behind the passage there lurks the conflict, not between gospel and philosophy, but rather between the gospel and its uninquiring possession as doctrine.  The authors of the Catechism do not take this conflict lightly; they anticipate resistance to their attempt at finding the common humanity of men in their being the questioners about the meaning of existence; and they protect themselves against all too ready misunderstands by assuring the reader they do not mean to â€œtake up a non-Christian attitude.â€  Assuming them to have carefully weighted every sentence they wrote, this defensive clause reveals an environment where it is not customary to ask questions, where the character of the gospel as an answer has been so badly obscured by is hardening into self-contained doctrine that the raising of the question to which it is meant as an answer can be suspect as a â€œnon-Christian attitude.â€  If that, however, is the situation, the authors have good reason to be worried indeed.  For the gospel as a doctrine which you can take and be saved, or leave and be condemned, is a dead letter; it will encounter indifference, if not contempt, among inquiring minds outside the church, as well as the restlessness of the believer inside who is un-Christian enough to be man the questioner.  The Chatechismâ€™s intent to restore the inquiring mind to the position that is his due, is a sensible first step toward regaining for the gospel the reality it has lost through the doctrinal hardening.  Moreover, however hesitant and tentative it may prove in the execution, the attempt is a first step toward regaining the life of reason represented by philosophy.  Both Platoâ€™s eroticism of the search (zetesis) and Aristotleâ€™s intellectually more aggressive aporein recognize in â€œman the questionerâ€ the man moved by God to ask the questions that will lead him toward the cause (arche) of being.  The search itself is the evidence of existential unrest; in the act of questioning, manâ€™s experience of his tension (tasis) towards the divine ground breaks forth in the word of inquiry as a prayer for the Word of the answer.  Question and answer are intimately related one toward the other; the search moves in the metaxy, as Plato has called it, in the In-Between of poverty and wealth, of human and divine; the question is knowing, but its knowledge is yet the trembling of a question that may reach the true answer or miss it.  This luminous search in which the finding of the true answer depends on asking the true question, and the asking of the true question on the spiritual apprehension of the true answer, is the life of reason.  The philosopher can only be delighted by the Catechismâ€™s admonition to make â€œfaithâ€ accountable in terms of an answer to the questions about the meaning of existence.  Question and answer are held together, and related to one another, by the event of the search.  Man, however, though he is truly the questioner, can also deform his humanity by refusing to ask the questions, or by loading them with premises devised to make the search impossible.  The gospel, to be heard, requires ears that can hear; philosophy is not the life of reason if the questionerâ€™s reason is depraved (Rom. 1:28).  The answer will not help the man who has lost the question; and the predicament of the present age is characterized by the loss of the question rather than of the answer, as the authors of the Catechism have seen rightly.  It will be necessary, therefore, to recover the question to which, in Hellenistic-Roman culture, the philosopher could understand the gospel as the answer.  Since the question concerns the humanity of man, it is the same today as it ever has been in the past, but today it is so badly distorted through the Western deculturation process that it must, first, be disentangled from the intellectually disordered language in which we indiscriminately speak of the meaning of life, or the meaning of existence, or the fact of existence which has no meaning, or the meaning which must be given to the fact of existence, and so forth, as if life were a given and meaning a property it has or does not have.  Well, existence is not a fact.  If anything, existence is a nonfact of a disturbing movement in the In-between of ignorance and knowledge, of time and timelessness, of imperfection and perfection, of hope and fulfillment, and ultimately of life and death.  From the experience of this movement, from the anxiety of losing the right direction in this In-Between of darkness and light, arises the inquiry concerning the meaning of life.  But it does arise only because life is experienced as manâ€™s participation in a movement with a direction to be found or missed; if manâ€™s existence were not a movement but a fact, it not only would have no meaning but the question of meaning could not even arise.</p>
<p>[EOQ]</p>
<p>Hope that helps folks understand EV better and also better understand where Iâ€™m coming from in discussions like these.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: D Hart</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/10/03/re-paganizing-the-church/#comment-2293</link>
		<dc:creator>D Hart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 13:51:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/2007/10/03/re-paganizing-the-church/#comment-2293</guid>
		<description>Caleb, what was that question?  It seems you could go two ways.  What is truth, goodness and beauty?  Or you could go who may stand on God's holy hill?  Isn't that what the rivalry between Jerusalem and Anthens was all about?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Caleb, what was that question?  It seems you could go two ways.  What is truth, goodness and beauty?  Or you could go who may stand on God&#8217;s holy hill?  Isn&#8217;t that what the rivalry between Jerusalem and Anthens was all about?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Caleb Stegall</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/10/03/re-paganizing-the-church/#comment-2289</link>
		<dc:creator>Caleb Stegall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 10:59:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/2007/10/03/re-paganizing-the-church/#comment-2289</guid>
		<description>There is no easy answer to that question.  But in fitting with this thread, and not wanting to spill 2000 more words, the short answer is that throughout Voegelin's work he regards Christianity and the Christ event as the pinnacle of differentiation of the truth of reality in human history.  He regards the Christian revelation as the perfection of philosophy.  That said, however, his work gives preference to Greek philosophy, especially in its accounts of history, meaning, consciousness, and the soul.  In his book on Voegelin, Federici gives this explanation: "Voegelin is primarily concerned with building a philosophical foundation on which to support a spiritual revival.  He believes that the preliminary task is to recover the meaning of experience.  With this as a precondition, Voegelin hopes to restore the primacy of meaningful spiritual conversion."  Voegelin himself puts it perhaps more clearly in his work "The Gospel and Culture": "[I]t will be necessary . . . to recover the question to which, in Hellenistic-Roman culture, the philosopher could understand the gospel as the answer."

Thus, I think it can fairly be said that Voegelin considered the merits of Christ to be that Christ was "the answer" to the fundamental question of human experience.  Voegelin was not an evangelist for the answer, however, because in these late days, he considered the project of recovering "the question" to be primary.  Beyond that, things get murky.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no easy answer to that question.  But in fitting with this thread, and not wanting to spill 2000 more words, the short answer is that throughout Voegelin&#8217;s work he regards Christianity and the Christ event as the pinnacle of differentiation of the truth of reality in human history.  He regards the Christian revelation as the perfection of philosophy.  That said, however, his work gives preference to Greek philosophy, especially in its accounts of history, meaning, consciousness, and the soul.  In his book on Voegelin, Federici gives this explanation: &#8220;Voegelin is primarily concerned with building a philosophical foundation on which to support a spiritual revival.  He believes that the preliminary task is to recover the meaning of experience.  With this as a precondition, Voegelin hopes to restore the primacy of meaningful spiritual conversion.&#8221;  Voegelin himself puts it perhaps more clearly in his work &#8220;The Gospel and Culture&#8221;: &#8220;[I]t will be necessary . . . to recover the question to which, in Hellenistic-Roman culture, the philosopher could understand the gospel as the answer.&#8221;</p>
<p>Thus, I think it can fairly be said that Voegelin considered the merits of Christ to be that Christ was &#8220;the answer&#8221; to the fundamental question of human experience.  Voegelin was not an evangelist for the answer, however, because in these late days, he considered the project of recovering &#8220;the question&#8221; to be primary.  Beyond that, things get murky.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: D Hart</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/10/03/re-paganizing-the-church/#comment-2284</link>
		<dc:creator>D Hart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 02:27:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/2007/10/03/re-paganizing-the-church/#comment-2284</guid>
		<description>Okay, Caleb, I'll bite.  What did Voegelin think of the merits of Christ?  Seriously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, Caleb, I&#8217;ll bite.  What did Voegelin think of the merits of Christ?  Seriously.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Caleb Stegall</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/10/03/re-paganizing-the-church/#comment-2280</link>
		<dc:creator>Caleb Stegall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 21:35:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/2007/10/03/re-paganizing-the-church/#comment-2280</guid>
		<description>Ok, one little bit of EV.  When talking about Hegel and his "magical system" by which Hegel reads paganism back into secular rationalism to create the "magic of the extreme" and make himself God, essentially, who can "evoke the shape of things to come," Voegelin wryly comments: "A shape is evoked indeed by Hegel's program, the shape of the Christ who takes the conflict and suffering of this world on his shoulders and thereby becomes its redeemer."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, one little bit of EV.  When talking about Hegel and his &#8220;magical system&#8221; by which Hegel reads paganism back into secular rationalism to create the &#8220;magic of the extreme&#8221; and make himself God, essentially, who can &#8220;evoke the shape of things to come,&#8221; Voegelin wryly comments: &#8220;A shape is evoked indeed by Hegel&#8217;s program, the shape of the Christ who takes the conflict and suffering of this world on his shoulders and thereby becomes its redeemer.&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Caleb Stegall</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/10/03/re-paganizing-the-church/#comment-2278</link>
		<dc:creator>Caleb Stegall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 21:26:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/2007/10/03/re-paganizing-the-church/#comment-2278</guid>
		<description>No Darryl, I'll spare you that!

And in fact, I agree with you quite a bit here.  The Isaiahic prophecy is a prefiguring of Christ as our shield and how we are to receive Him; it stands between the compact pagan-istic "sympathetic magic" and the fully differentiated pure utilitarian transactionalism.  

In other words, there is a danger of derailment in both directions here: the return to sypathetic magic of some forms of Romanism on the one hand and the advance to the disenchanted materialistic flattening of therapuetic deism on the other hand.  There are also combinations of these derailments, as when compact magical thinking is linked with materialistic technical ends.  This is what Lewis was writing about in That Hideous Strength.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No Darryl, I&#8217;ll spare you that!</p>
<p>And in fact, I agree with you quite a bit here.  The Isaiahic prophecy is a prefiguring of Christ as our shield and how we are to receive Him; it stands between the compact pagan-istic &#8220;sympathetic magic&#8221; and the fully differentiated pure utilitarian transactionalism.  </p>
<p>In other words, there is a danger of derailment in both directions here: the return to sypathetic magic of some forms of Romanism on the one hand and the advance to the disenchanted materialistic flattening of therapuetic deism on the other hand.  There are also combinations of these derailments, as when compact magical thinking is linked with materialistic technical ends.  This is what Lewis was writing about in That Hideous Strength.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: D Hart</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/10/03/re-paganizing-the-church/#comment-2276</link>
		<dc:creator>D Hart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 21:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/2007/10/03/re-paganizing-the-church/#comment-2276</guid>
		<description>Not so fast, Caleb.  Voegelin may be fine for the OT, but Christ changes things and makes the religion of the Bible less spooky.  I mean, he defeats the kingdom of Satan and the rites of Christianity become much less gory. The gore becomes invisible and spiritual.  Protestantism, I'd argue (and you've heard me do so before so forgive the redundancy) tried to restore or recover that invisible spirituality, whereas Rome and Constantinople tried to exhibit it. It may not simply be Kant or Mill who take the mojo out of Christianity.  It could also be Christ.  (I hesitate to submit this because, Caleb, you'll likely hit us with a long post of Voegelin on the NT. I'm ducking.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not so fast, Caleb.  Voegelin may be fine for the OT, but Christ changes things and makes the religion of the Bible less spooky.  I mean, he defeats the kingdom of Satan and the rites of Christianity become much less gory. The gore becomes invisible and spiritual.  Protestantism, I&#8217;d argue (and you&#8217;ve heard me do so before so forgive the redundancy) tried to restore or recover that invisible spirituality, whereas Rome and Constantinople tried to exhibit it. It may not simply be Kant or Mill who take the mojo out of Christianity.  It could also be Christ.  (I hesitate to submit this because, Caleb, you&#8217;ll likely hit us with a long post of Voegelin on the NT. I&#8217;m ducking.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: James Jordan</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/10/03/re-paganizing-the-church/#comment-2274</link>
		<dc:creator>James Jordan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 20:58:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/2007/10/03/re-paganizing-the-church/#comment-2274</guid>
		<description>Right. At the same time, history is a process of exorcism, since sin is so deceptive and so collective, enslaving people under principalities and powers of ideologies, that I think we need the OT as a means of sorting through the pagan world. That is, and I imagine you agree, when we look at what we might learn from "paganism," the OT (or Old Covenant model) provides us a way to filter, correct, and discern. We don't get that ability to discern from our ST categories, which are designed mainly to deal with errors in New Covenant thinking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right. At the same time, history is a process of exorcism, since sin is so deceptive and so collective, enslaving people under principalities and powers of ideologies, that I think we need the OT as a means of sorting through the pagan world. That is, and I imagine you agree, when we look at what we might learn from &#8220;paganism,&#8221; the OT (or Old Covenant model) provides us a way to filter, correct, and discern. We don&#8217;t get that ability to discern from our ST categories, which are designed mainly to deal with errors in New Covenant thinking.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Caleb Stegall</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/10/03/re-paganizing-the-church/#comment-2273</link>
		<dc:creator>Caleb Stegall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 20:49:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/2007/10/03/re-paganizing-the-church/#comment-2273</guid>
		<description>James, that's fine for you to bow out.  I understand.  I agree with you that the whole pre-Christian world ought to be looked at more closely, including the OT and the Hebraic experience.  Voegelin's "Israel and Revelation" is a stunning work in this regard.  I think Lewis/Tolkein got this as well, which is why I brought them up (they are popular enough for people to connect to, often unlike more technical sources like EV).  I also think the historic amalgamation of Christianity with pre-Christian pagan Europe needs to be dealt with.  I trust you saw in my follow-up posts some significant dealing with OT sources as well.  I see no reason to limit ourselves to those sources; but I certainly don't want to exclude them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James, that&#8217;s fine for you to bow out.  I understand.  I agree with you that the whole pre-Christian world ought to be looked at more closely, including the OT and the Hebraic experience.  Voegelin&#8217;s &#8220;Israel and Revelation&#8221; is a stunning work in this regard.  I think Lewis/Tolkein got this as well, which is why I brought them up (they are popular enough for people to connect to, often unlike more technical sources like EV).  I also think the historic amalgamation of Christianity with pre-Christian pagan Europe needs to be dealt with.  I trust you saw in my follow-up posts some significant dealing with OT sources as well.  I see no reason to limit ourselves to those sources; but I certainly don&#8217;t want to exclude them.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
