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	<title>Comments on: Were the Covenanters Right?  Should Christians Participate in Politics?</title>
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	<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/11/19/where-the-covenanters-right-should-christians-participate-in-politics/</link>
	<description>The Reign of Christ</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 00:01:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Josh M.</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/11/19/where-the-covenanters-right-should-christians-participate-in-politics/#comment-2517</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:07:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Pastor Chellis and others, what books discuss the history of Covenanter politics?  Any recommendations?  Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pastor Chellis and others, what books discuss the history of Covenanter politics?  Any recommendations?  Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: W.H. Chellis</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/11/19/where-the-covenanters-right-should-christians-participate-in-politics/#comment-2508</link>
		<dc:creator>W.H. Chellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 19:04:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/2007/11/19/where-the-covenanters-right-should-christians-participate-in-politics/#comment-2508</guid>
		<description>Academic neutrality?  Do you teach your students that the American Revolution was an admirable event?  Where is the academic neutrality?  Did a Jewish Holocaust occur in Germany during WWII?  Where is the academic neutrality?

I am not sure taking a position makes one a partisan.  The neutrality of the academic should lead to truth and a defense of it, no?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Academic neutrality?  Do you teach your students that the American Revolution was an admirable event?  Where is the academic neutrality?  Did a Jewish Holocaust occur in Germany during WWII?  Where is the academic neutrality?</p>
<p>I am not sure taking a position makes one a partisan.  The neutrality of the academic should lead to truth and a defense of it, no?</p>
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		<title>By: selder</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/11/19/where-the-covenanters-right-should-christians-participate-in-politics/#comment-2507</link>
		<dc:creator>selder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 13:42:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I am considering no longer voting because of my position as a high school history and government teacher. If I vote, I will be partisan and this has in the past compromised my academic neutrality. Any thoughts on this from anybody?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am considering no longer voting because of my position as a high school history and government teacher. If I vote, I will be partisan and this has in the past compromised my academic neutrality. Any thoughts on this from anybody?</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony Cowley</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/11/19/where-the-covenanters-right-should-christians-participate-in-politics/#comment-2497</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony Cowley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 18:49:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/2007/11/19/where-the-covenanters-right-should-christians-participate-in-politics/#comment-2497</guid>
		<description>Bill - I accept your uncle.  He's a nice fellow.

But, I wonder if your use of liberal is accurate.  Certainly the Covenanters were 'progressives' in the late 1800s and through to Prohibition. They were for the female vote and against slavery.  But, the earlier covenanters were not so sold on all this progressivism.  Some were critcial of the unitarian style progressivism, and none were - of course - unitarians.  
And, "Liberal" has changed its meaning over the years.  
At one point some of us NRA guys were contemplating a history book of reprinted essays which we wanted to title "Right from the Beginning," but the factors you mention scuttled this. So, I'm not saying you are wrong - but the NRA and modern American RP Church until the 1940s or so, was pretty 'liberal.'  But, there were RP voices that were not part of that mix.  And, there were conservative elements as well in the stuff published by the NRA.  It just seems that few of them questioned the legitimacy of the public schooling movement.  And, so, while some (I think of Delbert Elliot, Paul Martin's grandfather in Law) were conservatives in many ways, this was within certain set of assumptions which many of us today would question.  Just a heads up as to the semantic range of meaning of "liberal" and even "Progressive."  Today Progressive is pretty much Marxist, eh?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill - I accept your uncle.  He&#8217;s a nice fellow.</p>
<p>But, I wonder if your use of liberal is accurate.  Certainly the Covenanters were &#8216;progressives&#8217; in the late 1800s and through to Prohibition. They were for the female vote and against slavery.  But, the earlier covenanters were not so sold on all this progressivism.  Some were critcial of the unitarian style progressivism, and none were - of course - unitarians.<br />
And, &#8220;Liberal&#8221; has changed its meaning over the years.<br />
At one point some of us NRA guys were contemplating a history book of reprinted essays which we wanted to title &#8220;Right from the Beginning,&#8221; but the factors you mention scuttled this. So, I&#8217;m not saying you are wrong - but the NRA and modern American RP Church until the 1940s or so, was pretty &#8216;liberal.&#8217;  But, there were RP voices that were not part of that mix.  And, there were conservative elements as well in the stuff published by the NRA.  It just seems that few of them questioned the legitimacy of the public schooling movement.  And, so, while some (I think of Delbert Elliot, Paul Martin&#8217;s grandfather in Law) were conservatives in many ways, this was within certain set of assumptions which many of us today would question.  Just a heads up as to the semantic range of meaning of &#8220;liberal&#8221; and even &#8220;Progressive.&#8221;  Today Progressive is pretty much Marxist, eh?</p>
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		<title>By: MarkPele</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/11/19/where-the-covenanters-right-should-christians-participate-in-politics/#comment-2487</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkPele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 17:23:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/2007/11/19/where-the-covenanters-right-should-christians-participate-in-politics/#comment-2487</guid>
		<description>I'm not sure about either. It's quite possible that the political thought of the covenanters was progressive for their day, they would not be labeled as progressive today.  It was also the covenanters who were behind the temperance movement, which I would argue was a conservative movement.

I wouldn't say that Geneva is overwhelmingly politically conservative or liberal as an institution. I would say somewhat liberal in terms of the average RPCNA congregation, but that's significantly conservative in terms of today's political thought.  I would say that more to the point, Geneva is not a politically outspoken institution, so even if it does have conservative leanings, those are not communicated to the outside.  The word that gets out in the RP circles is the political views of certain professors, which are definitely liberal, but don't represent the other professors who are not so outspoken.  If you have anything specific, I'd appreciate e-mail - maybe there are things that can be done to help.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure about either. It&#8217;s quite possible that the political thought of the covenanters was progressive for their day, they would not be labeled as progressive today.  It was also the covenanters who were behind the temperance movement, which I would argue was a conservative movement.</p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t say that Geneva is overwhelmingly politically conservative or liberal as an institution. I would say somewhat liberal in terms of the average RPCNA congregation, but that&#8217;s significantly conservative in terms of today&#8217;s political thought.  I would say that more to the point, Geneva is not a politically outspoken institution, so even if it does have conservative leanings, those are not communicated to the outside.  The word that gets out in the RP circles is the political views of certain professors, which are definitely liberal, but don&#8217;t represent the other professors who are not so outspoken.  If you have anything specific, I&#8217;d appreciate e-mail - maybe there are things that can be done to help.</p>
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		<title>By: W.H. Chellis</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/11/19/where-the-covenanters-right-should-christians-participate-in-politics/#comment-2486</link>
		<dc:creator>W.H. Chellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:47:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/2007/11/19/where-the-covenanters-right-should-christians-participate-in-politics/#comment-2486</guid>
		<description>I am not so sure.  The covenanters were 17th, 18th, 19th, and (for the most part) 20th Century liberals.  In American they have been progressive in most all the great social causes.  

Geneva College, an institution that is not even mentioned in ISI's Finding the Right College and is never included in lists of top 10 Conservative colleges, remains a bastion of politically liberal and socially progressive evangelical thought. 

Not so un-covenanter when you think about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not so sure.  The covenanters were 17th, 18th, 19th, and (for the most part) 20th Century liberals.  In American they have been progressive in most all the great social causes.  </p>
<p>Geneva College, an institution that is not even mentioned in ISI&#8217;s Finding the Right College and is never included in lists of top 10 Conservative colleges, remains a bastion of politically liberal and socially progressive evangelical thought. </p>
<p>Not so un-covenanter when you think about it.</p>
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		<title>By: MarkPele</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/11/19/where-the-covenanters-right-should-christians-participate-in-politics/#comment-2483</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkPele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:22:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/2007/11/19/where-the-covenanters-right-should-christians-participate-in-politics/#comment-2483</guid>
		<description>CBrown, I think that Geneva College has lost its "distinctively RP" flavor because the RPCNA has not been so interested in Geneva College, except to smack it when it exceeds its boundaries. I suppose it's more incompetence, but the Board of Corporators spends all of its time and energy trying to decide matters of worship rather than the overall direction of the college.

So, within those bounds, Geneva has found its niche as one of the few institutions that even teaches that all areas of life (even science) are to submit to the Lordship of Christ, and the college has been pulled away from its distinctively Covenanter history by professors who are escaping the evanjellyfish institutions (for all the right reasons) but are not necessarily committed to the political views of the Covenanters.

This goes all the way back to the RPCNA synod, which, in my opinion has had too much of a hands-off approach to how Geneva is run.  We can talk about this in private if you have any specific recommendations.  The college president is expected to be the vision-bearer for the institution, and I think that's a mistake. The Corporators should be directing the College rather than waiting for the college to step out of bounds so that they can rat them out to synod.  As a graduate, I felt I got a good education, but not one that was really distinctively covenanter (even with the required core courses in Bible, Political Science and Humanities)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CBrown, I think that Geneva College has lost its &#8220;distinctively RP&#8221; flavor because the RPCNA has not been so interested in Geneva College, except to smack it when it exceeds its boundaries. I suppose it&#8217;s more incompetence, but the Board of Corporators spends all of its time and energy trying to decide matters of worship rather than the overall direction of the college.</p>
<p>So, within those bounds, Geneva has found its niche as one of the few institutions that even teaches that all areas of life (even science) are to submit to the Lordship of Christ, and the college has been pulled away from its distinctively Covenanter history by professors who are escaping the evanjellyfish institutions (for all the right reasons) but are not necessarily committed to the political views of the Covenanters.</p>
<p>This goes all the way back to the RPCNA synod, which, in my opinion has had too much of a hands-off approach to how Geneva is run.  We can talk about this in private if you have any specific recommendations.  The college president is expected to be the vision-bearer for the institution, and I think that&#8217;s a mistake. The Corporators should be directing the College rather than waiting for the college to step out of bounds so that they can rat them out to synod.  As a graduate, I felt I got a good education, but not one that was really distinctively covenanter (even with the required core courses in Bible, Political Science and Humanities)</p>
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		<title>By: stevez</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/11/19/where-the-covenanters-right-should-christians-participate-in-politics/#comment-2482</link>
		<dc:creator>stevez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:30:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/2007/11/19/where-the-covenanters-right-should-christians-participate-in-politics/#comment-2482</guid>
		<description>The question, â€œShould we participate in politics?â€ seems very odd to me.  When unpacked, it seems to suggest an underlying over-realization of the very nature of politics. Dropping out seems to be a function of a set of assumptions that I find odd in the first place, since most seem to justify their abstinence with seemingly noble reasons: evil continues, good gets buried. Well, who said it is the function of politics to reverse all that? I think the culprit lies in our very deep-seated American assumptions that make much more out of the body politic than was ever intended; this accounts for our predominant activist approach to politics.

Dropping out is just another expression of activist assumptions that over-load the function of politics and place stakes on it that over-realize its nature in the first place. Granted, it seems on the lesser-end-of-the-spectrum, but dropping out is certainly within the purview of what it means to be in a liberal democracy: you are free to not participate. It is just that Iâ€™d prefer the reason to be apathy rather than an adolescent over-realization in the first place that ends up taking its ball and going home simply because one lost his argument in the common sphere.

So while I agree with voices that are ostensibly critical of the â€œdrop outâ€ syndrome, I think I am for different reasons: I am because that is what one does as a member of this small quarter of the KoM called America. But voices like Smithâ€™s seem to go on to try to rally the troops once again to reverse the (perceived) evil and good realities and repeat th eover-realization when he says, â€œRefusing to participate in determining our nationâ€™s priorities, shaping its policies, and directing its expenditures robs Christians of a great opportunity (and obligation) to advance Christâ€™s true kingdom on earthâ€¦ Through doing so we can help, as Christians have done for centuries, make our nation and our world more righteous, just and peaceable.â€  I am not sure how this squares with better, former statements like, â€œWe need, therefore, to have modest expectations about what can be accomplished through government.â€ I think Smith shows just as much confusion as those he means to chastise. What he gives with one hand is roundly taken away with the other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The question, â€œShould we participate in politics?â€ seems very odd to me.  When unpacked, it seems to suggest an underlying over-realization of the very nature of politics. Dropping out seems to be a function of a set of assumptions that I find odd in the first place, since most seem to justify their abstinence with seemingly noble reasons: evil continues, good gets buried. Well, who said it is the function of politics to reverse all that? I think the culprit lies in our very deep-seated American assumptions that make much more out of the body politic than was ever intended; this accounts for our predominant activist approach to politics.</p>
<p>Dropping out is just another expression of activist assumptions that over-load the function of politics and place stakes on it that over-realize its nature in the first place. Granted, it seems on the lesser-end-of-the-spectrum, but dropping out is certainly within the purview of what it means to be in a liberal democracy: you are free to not participate. It is just that Iâ€™d prefer the reason to be apathy rather than an adolescent over-realization in the first place that ends up taking its ball and going home simply because one lost his argument in the common sphere.</p>
<p>So while I agree with voices that are ostensibly critical of the â€œdrop outâ€ syndrome, I think I am for different reasons: I am because that is what one does as a member of this small quarter of the KoM called America. But voices like Smithâ€™s seem to go on to try to rally the troops once again to reverse the (perceived) evil and good realities and repeat th eover-realization when he says, â€œRefusing to participate in determining our nationâ€™s priorities, shaping its policies, and directing its expenditures robs Christians of a great opportunity (and obligation) to advance Christâ€™s true kingdom on earthâ€¦ Through doing so we can help, as Christians have done for centuries, make our nation and our world more righteous, just and peaceable.â€  I am not sure how this squares with better, former statements like, â€œWe need, therefore, to have modest expectations about what can be accomplished through government.â€ I think Smith shows just as much confusion as those he means to chastise. What he gives with one hand is roundly taken away with the other.</p>
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		<title>By: W.H. Chellis</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/11/19/where-the-covenanters-right-should-christians-participate-in-politics/#comment-2480</link>
		<dc:creator>W.H. Chellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:37:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/2007/11/19/where-the-covenanters-right-should-christians-participate-in-politics/#comment-2480</guid>
		<description>Uncle!  The title was just an eye catcher.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uncle!  The title was just an eye catcher.</p>
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		<title>By: A</title>
		<link>http://deregnochristi.org/2007/11/19/where-the-covenanters-right-should-christians-participate-in-politics/#comment-2478</link>
		<dc:creator>A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 04:13:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deregnochristi.org/2007/11/19/where-the-covenanters-right-should-christians-participate-in-politics/#comment-2478</guid>
		<description>Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe that the Covenanters would say that participation in politics is inherently wrong.  Rather, the Covenanters said that taking an oath to support a constitution and government which opposed Christ by failing to recognize His authority compromised one's allegiance to Jesus Christ.  Participation in civil government that recognized Jesus Christ was not only allowable but very desirable.  The Covenanter participated in politics by signing the covenants and by holding the king accountable when he broke those covenants.

I will argue that present day Covenanters can participate in politics without compromising their allegiance to Jesus Christ.  Voting and holding political office are not necessary for political participation.  Voting is actually one of the least influential ways to participate in politics.  Writing letters to office holders is much more influential and gives every citizen a voice to honor Jesus Christ explicitly before the magistrate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Correct me if I am wrong, but I don&#8217;t believe that the Covenanters would say that participation in politics is inherently wrong.  Rather, the Covenanters said that taking an oath to support a constitution and government which opposed Christ by failing to recognize His authority compromised one&#8217;s allegiance to Jesus Christ.  Participation in civil government that recognized Jesus Christ was not only allowable but very desirable.  The Covenanter participated in politics by signing the covenants and by holding the king accountable when he broke those covenants.</p>
<p>I will argue that present day Covenanters can participate in politics without compromising their allegiance to Jesus Christ.  Voting and holding political office are not necessary for political participation.  Voting is actually one of the least influential ways to participate in politics.  Writing letters to office holders is much more influential and gives every citizen a voice to honor Jesus Christ explicitly before the magistrate.</p>
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